Liberals... tell me what you would do.

[HarleyK]

I did not answer the question because it was posed in such a way as to prove superiority. I respect anyone who has served the US and value their opinions highly, but the majority of the people in the US have not served in the armed forces; does this mean they are not allowed to have an opinion? Everyone in US is affected by this war, both directly and indirectly, therefore shouldn't they be allowed to have an opinion about it?

My question remains: Have you served your country? (In any way, humanitarian, military, active politician you name it).

I am sorry if this comes across too straight forward, but I have met too many people who have strong opinions about what needs to get done, but they don't want to get their hands dirty themselves. It is easy to say "stick it out, send more in, pay billions" if it never hits home. Nothing personal. Just a general rant about society these days, I guess.

HarleyK

 

[Derpeder]

Don't know. But this far, the UN estimates that 35,000 Iraqi civilians have lost their lives so far (read HERE). Over 3,000 Americans have died in Iraq, and more than 22,000 have suffered serious injuries (read HERE). To end up with a positive "lives saved" number, you'd have to exceed this estimate plus other countries' solders who fell.


HarleyK

Those numbers are better then the hundreds of thousands Saddam murdered. Not only that, far more people in America are murdered per month then US soldiers die in Iraq. Over 3000 Americans have died in 4 years in Iraq......over 7,000 people A YEAR die from faulty perscriptions given. We could mention drunk driving accidents, medical mistakes, etc etc. These are all deaths of americans that are "IN VEIN" as many people consider the american deaths in the war. I'd say dying while fighting for the freedom of the Iraqi people, and a chance at a peaceful Iraq is far better then getting hit by a drunk driver.

I don't know, this is just my opinion, but I don't think those numbers are that staggering. ANd the 3000+ that have died I believe honorably died in order to make our coutry safer and a free Iraq.

 

[H3D]

My question remains: Have you served your country? (In any way, humanitarian, military, active politician you name it).

I am sorry if this comes across too straight forward, but I have met too many people who have strong opinions about what needs to get done, but they don't want to get their hands dirty themselves. It is easy to say "stick it out, send more in, pay billions" if it never hits home. Nothing personal. Just a general rant about society these days, I guess.

HarleyK

Your question is irrelevant. Would my opinion be worth any more had I, or less if I had not? Have you considered that the US Military is funded through the tax dollars of the citizens of this great country which gives every tax paying citizen a right to have a valued opinion on this matter. Without the tax payers there wouldn't be a US Military. Every one in the USA owes a great deal of gratitude to the men and women who have served our country, but this does mean that they are the only ones who "contribute" to making the country great.

 

[andregurov]

Why do you think the Middle East and Iraq have been a place for Dictatorships and evil rule. Thats because of money, there is TRILLIONS of dollars in the middle east resources. Yes there is a drive for peace but there are also those people that want control of that money and the power that comes with it, and to make it worse its their Religion that drives them. Those people will not change there minds. Well there is one way to change their minds.............eliminate there minds.

I think you misunderstood the gist of my post. I'm not saying give money to the Iraqi government, but directly to the Iraqi people. As in lump sum, spend as you wish, gratis cash, door-to-door, individuals. Will you change the minds of the committed? No. This war is not about defeating those terrorists, it is about establishing a democratic peace in the Middle East. Killing innocents willynilly won't accomplish the goals that we desire. It will only alienate the bulk of Iraqis who simply want to have their families live safely. We view a dictatorship as unpalatable and anathema to the American way. Others who lack the security we do find it acceptable. I fear your line of thought would win us the battle for Iraq, and cost us the war on terrorism. Your tactical advantage will cost strategic position.

I think the Middle East and Iraq have been places for dictatorship and evil rule partly because of long-standing US policies regarding the necessity of oil to our economy. And profound issues regarding religion, ethnicity, and general human misery. Quite beyond the original intent of this thread.

J

 

[HarleyK]

These are all deaths of americans that are "IN VEIN"

And the 1.2 trillion $$$ spent in Iraq could be used at home to improve the health system, improve education to facilitate better lives etc. (see ARTICLE by David Leonhardt in the NY Times). Instead, $$$ seep away in the desert....

Your question is irrelevant. Would my opinion be worth any more had I, or less if I had not? Have you considered that the US Military is funded through the tax dollars of the citizens of this great country which gives every tax paying citizen a right to have a valued opinion on this matter. Without the tax payers there wouldn't be a US Military. Every one in the USA owes a great deal of gratitude to the men and women who have served our country, but this does mean that they are the only ones who "contribute" to making the country great.

Taxes were cut throughout the war
As I guessed correctly, you haven't done anything for your country, or would be proud to say so. And don't tell me you pay taxes happily... This country became great not because of passive people with an opinion, but because people who actually worked hard for its very foundation. Indeed, I only value the political opinion of people who have contributed to this country - be it in the military, humanitarian services, volunteer work or otherwise.

But this is a fish forum, and I will not hold anything against people whose opinions differ from mine.

With these words I bow out of this thread. I believe I gave a reasonable answer to the original question.
Have a great weekend & Happy Fishkeeping,
HarleyK

 

[Vince]

very fascinating to find our MFK members very civilized in this discussion. of course there will always be an argument or else it would not be a discussion. best time to respond to posts is when you are calm, and collected. everyone knows i am past the age of 35, which i was told is the cutoff age for military service. in saying that, i would still carry arms, if the war comes here in the US, which I am sincerely hoping would not. But the news from Iran bothers me in that they are getting closer to making the bomb, and knowing their type of thinking, they would not hesitate to use it first on Israel, and next is their "enemies". I really hope the Iranian people dont just stand around and allow their government leaders to bring them to destruction..... hopelessly hoping....

 

[JuanTamad]

And the 1.2 trillion $$$ spent in Iraq could be used at home to improve the health system, improve education to facilitate better lives etc. (see ARTICLE by David Leonhardt in the NY Times). Instead, $$$ seep away in the desert....



Taxes were cut throughout the war
As I guessed correctly, you haven't done anything for your country, or would be proud to say so. And don't tell me you pay taxes happily... This country became great not because of passive people with an opinion, but because people who actually worked hard for its very foundation. Indeed, I only value the political opinion of people who have contributed to this country - be it in the military, humanitarian services, volunteer work or otherwise.

But this is a fish forum, and I will not hold anything against people whose opinions differ from mine.

With these words I bow out of this thread. I believe I gave a reasonable answer to the original question.
Have a great weekend & Happy Fishkeeping,
HarleyK

Not only are you a responsible administrator, you are also a very responsible citizen of this Planet. Sorry if I mischaraterized you on another thread, My apologies Sir.

Best Regards,

Matt

 

[H3D]

And the 1.2 trillion $$$ spent in Iraq could be used at home to improve the health system, improve education to facilitate better lives etc. (see ARTICLE by David Leonhardt in the NY Times). Instead, $$$ seep away in the desert....

This true, but what good are these things if we cannot feel secure in our own country because terrorist are flying planes into buildings?

Taxes were cut throughout the war
As I guessed correctly, you haven't done anything for your country, or would be proud to say so. And don't tell me you pay taxes happily... This country became great not because of passive people with an opinion, but because people who actually worked hard for its very foundation. Indeed, I only value the political opinion of people who have contributed to this country - be it in the military, humanitarian services, volunteer work or otherwise.

But this is a fish forum, and I will not hold anything against people whose opinions differ from mine.

With these words I bow out of this thread. I believe I gave a reasonable answer to the original question.
Have a great weekend & Happy Fishkeeping,
HarleyK

Taxes may have went down, however the amount of money being given to the military has went up. As stated twice already I choose not to answer your question because it is irrelevant. As stated twice already this is an issue that effect everyone; not just those who have served this country. Yes I pay taxes happily as I consider it my patriotic duty. You should ask yourself why the people worked so hard to create the USA we know today. Do you think it was so they could claim to be better than everyone else? Or do you think it was so they could tell others their opinions did not matter? As stated earlier I am grateful for your service to this country, however your condescending attitude towards others who have not done the same seems highly unfounded.

 

[Vince]

OK, enough of that. what needs to be done is to eliminate what is endangering the lives of innocent people, regardless of race, color or creed. the enemy has no regard to human life, so no matter how you feel about your country, positive or negative, is moot. the reality of it is that these people (extremists) are willing to die for their cause, and very determined to make this world "their" world, where any other religion is not allowed, your life is dictated by rituals that has to happen every single day! This is not love for God! but rituals made by people who think they are better than others!!! which side are you on?

 

[Mourinho18]

the reality of it is that these people (extremists) are willing to die for their cause, and very determined to make this world "their" world, where any other religion is not allowed, your life is dictated by rituals that has to happen every single day! This is not love for God! but rituals made by people who think they are better than others!!! which side are you on?

Oh, you mean like the Catholic faith which had the Crusades back in the 11th to 13th century.

Bunch of other examples of extremism from other religions too.