LOTS of wild caughts these days, hmm...

[Aquamojo]

that is the story behind many of the wild green umbies in the market today. As far as wild verses tank raised, wild is always a better bet for, generally healthier fish. The shallow gene pool can produce some sickly and deformed cichlids. Having said that, some tank breeders have selected for brighter colors through the years and have made better tank raised looking fish. Then on the other end of the coin, I know many of us just keep the first juvees that pair off then sell the rest off. This does not select for the largest, most colorful, or healthies fish. maybe just the horniest!

There are NO wild green umbee on the market today. All of the green umbee out there originated from a pair brought back from Panama by Rusty Wessel. He brought in exactly TWO fish...and by sheer luck it was male and female. Rusty said it was the most "dangerous" trip he ever undertook...given the political situation where they were collected. I've known Rusty for years...and for HIM to say it was dangerous means it must have been REALLY bad.

As to removing fish for their environment for the hobby...when done right not adult pairs are collected, but rather smaller fish and portions of fry. The fy removed, with mortality ffrom predation, makes it a non-issue. I can't speak for all of the folks who collect, but the groups I have been with took great care NOT to destroy the habitat. And never more than a few of each species for the people on the trip.

If fish were not collected by someone in the wild, we wouldn't have them in the hobby and more importantly...they wouldn't be studied by folks who may ultimatley help them through conservatin efforts.

 

[fishfarm]

There are more wilds green Umbies than that, I have 100 small ones brought in by friend from Panama. He has relatives who live there and collected them for him. There is also a wild pair in New York brought in by the same source so we have some more genetics to work with now. Ken

 

[Aquamojo]

There are more wilds green Umbies than that, I have 100 small ones brought in by friend from Panama. He has relatives who live there and collected them for him. There is also a wild pair in New York brought in by the same source so we have some more genetics to work with now. Ken

100 wild green umbee from a friend from Panama? Who would that be?

 

[VRWC]

As far as wild verses tank raised, wild is always a better bet for, generally healthier fish.

I dont know this to be especially true, except by the experienced, educated & dedicated aquarist. The habitats that these fish are taken from, especially nowadays, are not always clean and pristine and vary from the literature found all over online. Hell, they vary from site to site, depending on where you look.

We take them and try and keep what we think are optimal levels which, sometimes, isnt what they are used to. I cant imagine them sustaining better health being taken from the wild and put in a glass box, especially the older fish...and especially after having dealt with being shipped as well. Is anyones import percentage (still alive) 100%? 75%? 50%?

Then throw in the factors of chlorinated water being used during water changes (before and after de-chlorination), chemicals in the man made food they are fed by most, parasitic issues and the chemicals we use to rid them of those before adding them to our tanks with other fish, forced integration with species they wouldnt normally be around etc etc etc...

Id say wild caught are not nearly as healthy as the F1s born in the water they will live in for life, being fed the food they will eat for life, being "handled" by humans since day 1 and more. The received amount of stress on a WC is way higher than on any F1 born in captivity, IMO.

Also, Id guess the success rate of WCs in the hands of someone who doesnt understand all of this is not very high, so theres a certain amount of knowledge required to keep a WC alive for an extended period of time. Its definitely not as easy as going to an LFS, picking up a pair of Dempseys and doing 25% water changes monthly, which we read about all too often on here.

 

[BobP]

It seems to depend on the genetics of the originally collected fishes and the general nature of the species. I've had wild caught breeders that were very reclusive and would only eat one type of food. Their fry were very outgoing and eat everything. Herichthys pantostictus come to mind as an example. Other species like oscars seem to act the same as farm bred ones but are better looking. I've seen some species that show some very poor genetics as the F# increases. Tomocichla asfraci comes to mind as an example. I had some fantastic F1 asfraci that grew to 14" and displayed great color. I've also had tank bred F? asfraci that grew very slow and developed a deformed jaw. Their offspring showed this trait as well. I've seen some photos of other asfraci around that have the same trait.

Mo,
I had the same opinion of the Caquetaia sp "green umbie". While I was in the process of selling some F1 green umbie I got from Rusty's batch, the buyer was telling me they were going to send them to their friend who had some wild ones. I questioned where they got the wild ones from as I only knew of Rusty having wild. I got the "friend of a friend imported them and they are real wild" answer. Beats me if that's true or not.

 

[cchhcc]

I dont know this to be especially true, except by the experienced, educated & dedicated aquarist. The habitats that these fish are taken from, especially nowadays, are not always clean and pristine and vary from the literature found all over online. Hell, they vary from site to site, depending on where you look.

We take them and try and keep what we think are optimal levels which, sometimes, isnt what they are used to. I cant imagine them sustaining better health being taken from the wild and put in a glass box, especially the older fish...and especially after having dealt with being shipped as well. Is anyones import percentage (still alive) 100%? 75%? 50%?

Then throw in the factors of chlorinated water being used during water changes (before and after de-chlorination), chemicals in the man made food they are fed by most, parasitic issues and the chemicals we use to rid them of those before adding them to our tanks with other fish, forced integration with species they wouldnt normally be around etc etc etc...

Id say wild caught are not nearly as healthy as the F1s born in the water they will live in for life, being fed the food they will eat for life, being "handled" by humans since day 1 and more. The received amount of stress on a WC is way higher than on any F1 born in captivity, IMO.

Also, Id guess the success rate of WCs in the hands of someone who doesnt understand all of this is not very high, so theres a certain amount of knowledge required to keep a WC alive for an extended period of time. Its definitely not as easy as going to an LFS, picking up a pair of Dempseys and doing 25% water changes monthly, which we read about all too often on here.

Very nice post..... I completely agree!

 

[Aquamojo]

It seems to depend on the genetics of the originally collected fishes and the general nature of the species. I've had wild caught breeders that were very reclusive and would only eat one type of food. Their fry were very outgoing and eat everything. Herichthys pantostictus come to mind as an example. Other species like oscars seem to act the same as farm bred ones but are better looking. I've seen some species that show some very poor genetics as the F# increases. Tomocichla asfraci comes to mind as an example. I had some fantastic F1 asfraci that grew to 14" and displayed great color. I've also had tank bred F? asfraci that grew very slow and developed a deformed jaw. Their offspring showed this trait as well. I've seen some photos of other asfraci around that have the same trait.

Mo,
I had the same opinion of the Caquetaia sp "green umbie". While I was in the process of selling some F1 green umbie I got from Rusty's batch, the buyer was telling me they were going to send them to their friend who had some wild ones. I questioned where they got the wild ones from as I only knew of Rusty having wild. I got the "friend of a friend imported them and they are real wild" answer. Beats me if that's true or not.

it's a small internet community of aquarists. if someone collected Green Umbee, it would have popped up somewhere in conversation. Short of a description of who, when and where they were collected. I would tend to believe they were F1...or F1 sold as wild. 100 wild green umbee taken out of the country would be a lot of fish. A friend doesn't convince me...but, then again, I'm not buying any.

 

[BobP]

it's a small internet community of aquarists. if someone collected Green Umbee, it would have popped up somewhere in conversation. Short of a description of who, when and where they were collected. I would tend to believe they were F1...or F1 sold as wild. 100 wild green umbee taken out of the country would be a lot of fish. A friend doesn't convince me...but, then again, I'm not buying any.

Exactly my point. I was just trying to politely say bull****.

 

[fishfarm]

100 wild green umbee from a friend from Panama? Who would that be?

I got them from Mack, he got a wild female and part of her spawn when they were just free swimming, which I got 100 F0 fry when they were 1/4", he also sold his wild pair to George in NY who now has two spawns from them, so there's more fish in the hobby beside Rusty's. Ken

 

[fishfarm]

I asked Mack today of it was alright to post his name on the thread, PM me and I'll give you his phone number, you can ask him yourself, everybody here knows who he is. He's brought in Wild green Umbies 3-4 times, bred them and then sold the pair to George who has posted pictures of them here several time, it's no secret. Mack also posted pictures here before he sold them to George. He sold some of the wild fry to me and a few other people, I also had F1 fry from his wild pair in the Fall, it was shear luck he got tiny wild fry this year. MO, Mack told me he has talked to you about his wild pair before. Ken

Exactly my point. I was just trying to politely say bull****.