Northfin food

[dogofwar]

...pretty much my post from like 8 pages ago...

If it's any consolation, one of the speakers at our Big Fish Deal convention, who's been keeping, importing and diving in Lake Malawi since the 70s, swears by Xtreme foods.

One who spoke at BFD a couple of years ago and keeps a fish house of thousands of gallons of fish he's collected himself in Central America, including the one named after him, swears by Cobalt.

There are plenty of Best of Show winners at ACA conventions who have thrived on whatever random free food samples that were handed out at various conventions and meetings throughout the year

Enjoy your fish...do water changes...skip a day or two of feeding per week...and don't feed Wardley's

Matt

This whole thing is crazy... a company making outrageous claims about their product, independent labs with dramatically different results, rumors and intrigue across the inter-webs, science mixed with pseudo-science, threats of legal action, mystery methods for feed production that result in the best feed known to man... Northfin makes it sound so good that humans should probably start eating it.

And all the average hobbyist is left with is questions. Should I risk giving my fish that bag of Northfin in my basement or should I stick with the tried and true Wardley's? Or should I just switch to silversides and farm-raised Tilapia? But what are the silversides and tilapia eating and will those preservatives end up in my fish? What about that GMO organic free-range heirloom zucchini I feed to my plecos?



So, I wish I had the money! Anyone want to organize taking up a collection? I'll put in my two bits

 

[CANAMONSTER]

A worm far like dogofwar does is also a great idea! I'm going back to the old school mentality of variety is key. A little of everything!
My rays don't take to NF or NLS but will take massivore, so this is what I will give them. Not every day or as a staple but a little variety of everything

 

[neutrino]

...If it's any consolation, one of the speakers at our Big Fish Deal convention, who's been keeping, importing and diving in Lake Malawi since the 70s, swears by Xtreme foods.

Sounds like someone I know, Larry Johnson (we were mods on the same forum for a few years). If it's him he's not that obsessed with fish food.

I agree there's more than one food that will do fine for most fish, so I can understand the perspective of not making a big deal of food. There's room for personal preferences imo. But I've certainly found some are better than others, I say this based on doing a lot of breeding and concluding some pretty extensive long term food testing about ten years ago. Since then I've continued to make comparisons and I've observed that which food will give you the best color can vary by species. Really, I've always done that, long before there was an NLS or NF. I don't try out every new thing that comes out, some I eliminate simply by looking at the ingredients-- too many starches and grains, nope-- soybean meal, nope. My fish tend to live a long time, some of that is general care and feeding, some I can attribute to genetics of the fish, sometimes it's your local water.

On the other hand, I don't dismiss it that a company makes claims that turn out not to be true. Sure, competitive marketing is such that a lot of companies hype their food as the best for this or that reason. I'm not interested in telling someone else what to think of all of this, but, as far as it's relevant to me, what I'm interested in now is how NF responds.

I'll say one thing, this demonstrates why I'm not the first to jump on every new food that comes along making big claims about how great they are.

 

[dogofwar]

Red wigglers are awesome - safe*, nutritious, easy to culture...free!

*I've only used them for years, have no stake in commercial worm ventures and haven't had them tested for ethyoxin or exotic nematodes, etc. so I hope no one accuses me of making unsupported claims

Matt

A worm far like dogofwar does is also a great idea! I'm going back to the old school mentality of variety is key. A little of everything!
My rays don't take to NF or NLS but will take massivore, so this is what I will give them. Not every day or as a staple but a little variety of everything

 

[dogofwar]

Yes it's Larry. And he told everyone that he uses and recommends Xtreme.

Matt

Sounds like someone I know, Larry Johnson (we were mods on the same forum for a few years). If it's him he's not that obsessed with fish food.

I agree there's more than one food that will do fine for most fish, so I can understand the perspective of not making a big deal of food. There's room for personal preferences imo. But I've certainly found some are better than others, I say this based on doing a lot of breeding and concluding some pretty extensive long term food testing about ten years ago. Since then I've continued to make comparisons and I've observed that which food will give you the best color can vary by species. Really, I've always done that, long before there was an NLS or NF. I don't try out every new thing that comes out, some I eliminate simply by looking at the ingredients-- too many starches and grains, nope-- soybean meal, nope. My fish tend to live a long time, some of that is general care and feeding, some I can attribute to genetics of the fish, sometimes it's your local water.

On the other hand, I don't dismiss it that a company makes claims that turn out not to be true. Sure, competitive marketing is such that a lot of companies hype their food as the best for this or that reason. I'm not interested in telling someone else what to think of all of this, but, as far as it's relevant to me, what I'm interested in now is how NF responds.

I'll say one thing, this demonstrates why I'm not the first to jump on every new food that comes along making big claims about how great they are.

 

[neutrino]

...So here's a question. NF has Montmorillonite clay in it, right? Some clays are thought to bind to toxins. Some think Amazon parrots eat clay to help remove toxins in the seeds they eat. Is it possible the clay in NF is an ameliorating factor when there are high levels of EQ?

 

[RD.]

I was hoping to bow out of this discussion, but wow, hard to ignore some comments. FYI .... for years Larry Johnson used and swore by Tetra Colorbits when feeding his fish collected from Malawi, long before anyone here had even heard of his name. Big deal. No one here cares what Larry feeds his fish, or for that matter what you feed your rays, Mike. No offense gents, but again that's not what this discussion is about.

On the other hand, I don't dismiss it that a company makes claims that turn out not to be true. Sure, competitive marketing is such that a lot of companies hype their food as the best for this or that reason. I'm not interested in telling someone else what to think of all of this, but, as far as it's relevant to me, what I'm interested in now is how NF responds.

As consumers, I would hope that is what the vast majority reading this discussion are interested in. Not just oh well, don't worry, go watch your fish & do another water change. Larry, Curly & Moe feed brand xyz and are happy.

The owner of NF, once stated here on MFK that the clay is added for it's mineral content. Their website claims the same. His exact words were;

Clay we are using for the natural mineral sours and it will not hurt any fish.

According to the creator of NF, the use of clay had nothing to do with binding toxins - and at such small percentages as found in fish food most certainly would not match the quantity consumed by animals in nature. IMO at low inclusion rates found in fish food it is nothing more than a marketing gimmick, borrowed from the pages of Dainichi.

In that same previous discussion here on MFK, regarding the use of clay in fish food, I commented about Dainichi, and NF, and posted the following.

In pet food, including fish food, the main role of clay is that of a binding agent, for increased durability, which is why Dainichi pellets are hard - they probably use more clay than Northfin. But at the end of the day montmorillonite clay is not considered a dietary mineral enhancer in any form of pet feed as the minerals contained in it are not considered to be biologically available to animals. In fact, AAFCO defines these clay products (there are several forms of clay used in the pet trade) as special purpose products (87.5) permitted for use as anti-caking agents, pelleting aids, and non-nutritive carriers at levels below 2% of a complete food. Which is why, just like Dainichi, Northfin also uses a commercial vitamin/mineral premix.

Not a big deal either way in my books, it's a very small inclusion rate, but IMO adding a miniscule amount of clay sure as hell doesn't give large amounts of EQ a free pass.

 

[neutrino]

for years Larry Johnson used and swore by Tetra Colorbits when feeding his fish collected from Malawi, long before anyone here had even heard of his name.

That was the thing made me wonder if it was Larry. He didn't comment very often on food but when he did said he liked the Tetra (to each their own) and, more or less, that he didn't see the advantage of more expensive foods, why I said he's not obsessive about it. The Xtreme must be a more recent development.

There's a lot of claims about health benefits of clay, animals in the wild, fish and pets, even people. I've done some reading and don't know how substantiated any of it is. I've also read conflicting theories about why birds in the wild eat it, whether for the salts and minerals, to remove toxins, or something else... but it seemed a logical question.

Yup... just when I think this thread has run it's useful course...

 

[RD.]

Yes, it was most certainly a logical question. There are studies going back over a decade regarding clay, and its use in farm feed to counter potential aflatoxins and mycotoxins. At high enough inclusion rates it may have a use in farm feeds, that use high cereal inclusion rates of sketchy ingredients such as rapeseed meal. cottonseed meal, peanut oil, corn etc, and where high inclusion rates of lipids are present. Add some moisture to that and bad things can happen quickly. But in tropical pet fish food, it is very rare. At least here in North America. Probably because most tropical pet food is dry, and formulated at under 12% moisture content, so post manufacture mold cannot survive. But yet another good reason for avoiding terrestrial cereal based fish foods. Unfortunately this is still an issue with some of the cereal based dog foods on the market, and recalls still take place.

Remember the semi moist fish food that HBH came out with in the past? (Propylene glycol) Remember how some containers were moldy when opened? High moisture content. (22%) I recall 10+ yrs ago when those HBH reps came to cichlid forum touting their latest greatest fish food - and now, they have sold out, and the original manufacturer is no longer. The soft & moist formulas appear to have been discontinued. Interesting how that all played out. I called them out on some of this stuff as well, and got my hands slapped for doing so.

But I digress, my point on responding about the use of clay in NF was to point out what the owner of NF himself has stated - it is added for its mineral content.

 

[dogofwar]

I tend to place a lot of credence in the experiences of folks like Larry and Rusty rather than online "experts" like some of the folks here.

Enjoy the circle-jerk.

I'm out...

Matt