RE-Post: As well as observations

[Tango374]

Somewhere in this thread it was brought up that alot of peoples Brandtii's look different from one another.
It is my personal believe that within 20 years or so, there is going to be a ton more serrasalmus's identified then what is out there now. Its just going to take science some time to describe all of these "complexes" or "cf's".
Now I understand that a shade of color is one thing...say a gold brantii along side of a silver brantii...Could be anything. There is a possibility of male and female phyiscal differences in S. Brantii, although attempting to examine color differences between males and females of other species of p's hasn't been successful.
Water quality, which is probably not the issue here, can throw off the color of fishes and turn them pale as well.
But certain certain species of Serra's have complexes. And I'll use Rhombeus as an example because its the easiest for most to identify with.
You can not tell me that a an adult Diamond Rhombeus (blue, black, gold, pink, teal, rainbow) is the same species of fish as an adult Rhombeus from Peru. Theres no way. Especially if you've seen the two adults side by side. Sooner or later the Rhombeus complex is going to be broken up and these species of fish are going to be identified. There are cf's to Compresses. Theres complex's to sanchezi (which recently, used to be a complex to Rhombeus, then became a complex to spilo's, then finally became sanchezi).

I guess what I'm trying to put out, is that I wouldn't be suprized if S. Brantii like the others listed above has Complex forms in its species.

 

[cepon3]

I found this to be quite interesting.. found it at http://www.angelfire.com/biz/piranha038/brandtii.html

BREEDING S. brandtii

Breeding S. brandtii has not been accomplished by hobbyists as of this writing. While their breeding habits might be similar to Serrasalmus maculatus or S. spilopleura, there are some things that need to be done in order to have the best suitable breeding environment. .

Because they are a small species and prone to excessive aggressive behavior, it is my recommendation that an aquarium of at least 200 U.S. gallons be used to facilitate breeding. I believe the greater accomplishment would be with a larger tank than my suggestion as this would give S. brandtii a much better chance to "feel at home." Water chemistry for the rio Sao Francisco (and depending where you are) is: Temp; 21 - 24 C, pH; 6 - 7.8, Hardness up to 25 dGH. What I would also suggest is lowering the pH from the higher figure to about 6.0 and doing 30% water changes every three days, using pre-conditioned water that had been treated by adding a phosphoric acid at the rate of 5 milliliters per gallon. The reasoning behind this is because it is known that some hard to breed catfishes from this region were able to be achieve breeding behavior and clutches of eggs using this method after the 5th water change. While there is no guarantee this might help S. brandtii spawn, one never knows until all venues are examined. Peat filtration should be used in all cases. What might be of interest to readers is the natural pH value of Rio Sao Francisco can range anywhere from 4.8 to 7.8 and the areas where some S. brandtii are caught (rio das Velhas, a tributary of the rio Sao Francisco) pH can average 6.5 to 8.7! Many organisms cannot tolerate high levels of acidity, and even those who can, face the problems that their food sources (such as insects) cannot survive in highly acidic environments. As acidity in a water system increases, the number and diversity of organisms decreases. Also, at levels of pH 5, most fish eggs cannot hatch (see: Project Amazonas, Threats - Pollution). Both S. spilopleura and S. brandtii share a common egg trait in how the zygote is formed according to a current unpublished document (Godinho).

Getting back to breeding this species and its requirements, a biological filtration box (wet/dry system) should be used as majority of successful breeding of P. nattereri has been accomplished using this method. Add a couple air stones in each end of the tank. Lastly, go back and read information on S. maculatus and P. nattereri as the general rules for breeding would nearly apply here too. As a general rule, expect aggressive fin biting and/or mortality if you introduce same species.

I was thinking about the divider.. it could work just like with all the really aggressive cichlids.. but i think that using the way they get the catfish in that area to breed may have some merit to it.

 

[JoeDizzleMPLS]

i don't know about the divider method, in my experience with piranhas, all that dividers have accomplished is stressing the fish out even more, it may work in certain situations, but i think it would do more harm than good in most situations.

 

[demjor19]

i don't know about the divider method, in my experience with piranhas, all that dividers have accomplished is stressing the fish out even more, it may work in certain situations, but i think it would do more harm than good in most situations.

when the female lays the eggs it should release pheromones causing them to calm down a little and hopefully "do their thing".

 

[JoeDizzleMPLS]

but is she gonna get calm enough to even lay the eggs in the first place with another rhom swimming around on the other side of a divider? it may work, but i think that even with a divider, it is gonna take a big tank for something like that to happen.

 

[demjor19]

but is she gonna get calm enough to even lay the eggs in the first place with another rhom swimming around on the other side of a divider? it may work, but i think that even with a divider, it is gonna take a big tank for something like that to happen.

i agree...the chances are slim to none, but it could be fun to try.

 

[JoeDizzleMPLS]

yeah, it would be awesome

 

[cepon3]

You never know.. the female may lay FROM the presence of the male rhom.. There could be a multitude of different triggers.. We all are thinking that it may be stressful to the fish to be divided and such but with cichlids, Ive had females lay eggs at the sight of a dominant male.. with the male fertilizing through the divider because of the chemicals released with the eggs.. it could be similar with piranha..

 

[demjor19]

You never know.. the female may lay FROM the presence of the male rhom.. There could be a multitude of different triggers.. We all are thinking that it may be stressful to the fish to be divided and such but with cichlids, Ive had females lay eggs at the sight of a dominant male.. with the male fertilizing through the divider because of the chemicals released with the eggs.. it could be similar with piranha..

another problem here is...how do you know you have a male rhom? our girl obviously laid eggs, but i have no idea how you could know the sex of a male. maybe females dont get as large as males? i want to try finding a BIG rhom (16+ inches) and just hope for a dominant male. there is so much guessing involved that it would truly be a miracle if it worked...or some really good guessing.

 

[JoeDizzleMPLS]

yeah, there's just alot of guesswork involved, but at least you have one half of the puzzle figured out... most people don't even get that far