RED DEVIL Juvs.... Labiatus or Citrinellus???
- Thread starter Cyberman
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Cyberman ........ I'm not too sure how I have been "talking down to you", IMO I've gone above & beyond in an attempt to explain to you why one cannot & should not make assumptions when attempting to identify the genetics of a fish, especially those that are closely related species, such as in this case.
You said;
It's not a case Midevils being an easy answer, it's a case of weighing in all the data that is available, and drawing a reasonable conclusion based on a preponderance of the evidence. For fish that are sold at LFS, with no known provenance back to the wild, and where common names are being assigned by the supplier and/or the vendor, then the only reasonable conclusion is the fish should be considered of mixed origin.
Quite frankly I think that most reasonable people would have by now read the two stickies in this section, and came to the same reasonable conclusion. The burden of proof becomes that of the supplier/vendor, not the consumer.
Mac - you said;
First off, in the case of wild fish, and the fishkeeping hobby, they would be referred to as F0, the offspring of those wild fish would be considered F1's. Many wild labiatum have been brought in to the hobby over the past several years from highly reputable vendors such as Jeff Rapps, and many of those fishes offspring are also circulating within the hobby........
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...Rapps-photographic-library-of-wild-red-devils
as are many of his citrinellum........
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...s-photographic-library-of-wild-midas-cichlids
In the case of Cyberman's "red devils" (labiatum) it becomes an easier task to determine the genetics, if one knows the collection location as labiatum are only found in the great lakes. (Lake Managua and Lake Nicaragua) To the best of my knowledge they are also the only amph species found in the great lakes to have the physical traits that labiatum are known for - fleshy lips, elongated & laterally compressed bodies, etc. The Midas complex can be a bit more tricky, especially if you do not know the collection location.
The problem is that when dealing with most LFS, and almost all big box stores, your "red devils" are for the most part originating from a pond in Florida, or SE Asia, where in 99+% of the cases they will not be using wild stock as their breeding foundation.
So as you said, mac, there is no "real" way of identifying what they are exactly for 100%.
In that case, a reasonable person, and a responsible person that is breeding these type of fish (such as you are mac) will hopefully not sell the offspring, or if they do, will make sure that they are advertised for what they are. Which is where the term Midevil comes in to play.
That's the real point of this thread. Be responsible, and no one here gives a rats behind what anyone calls their fish.
You said;
It's not a case Midevils being an easy answer, it's a case of weighing in all the data that is available, and drawing a reasonable conclusion based on a preponderance of the evidence. For fish that are sold at LFS, with no known provenance back to the wild, and where common names are being assigned by the supplier and/or the vendor, then the only reasonable conclusion is the fish should be considered of mixed origin.
Quite frankly I think that most reasonable people would have by now read the two stickies in this section, and came to the same reasonable conclusion. The burden of proof becomes that of the supplier/vendor, not the consumer.
Mac - you said;
First off, in the case of wild fish, and the fishkeeping hobby, they would be referred to as F0, the offspring of those wild fish would be considered F1's. Many wild labiatum have been brought in to the hobby over the past several years from highly reputable vendors such as Jeff Rapps, and many of those fishes offspring are also circulating within the hobby........
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...Rapps-photographic-library-of-wild-red-devils
as are many of his citrinellum........
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...s-photographic-library-of-wild-midas-cichlids
In the case of Cyberman's "red devils" (labiatum) it becomes an easier task to determine the genetics, if one knows the collection location as labiatum are only found in the great lakes. (Lake Managua and Lake Nicaragua) To the best of my knowledge they are also the only amph species found in the great lakes to have the physical traits that labiatum are known for - fleshy lips, elongated & laterally compressed bodies, etc. The Midas complex can be a bit more tricky, especially if you do not know the collection location.
The problem is that when dealing with most LFS, and almost all big box stores, your "red devils" are for the most part originating from a pond in Florida, or SE Asia, where in 99+% of the cases they will not be using wild stock as their breeding foundation.
So as you said, mac, there is no "real" way of identifying what they are exactly for 100%.
In that case, a reasonable person, and a responsible person that is breeding these type of fish (such as you are mac) will hopefully not sell the offspring, or if they do, will make sure that they are advertised for what they are. Which is where the term Midevil comes in to play.
That's the real point of this thread. Be responsible, and no one here gives a rats behind what anyone calls their fish.
@rd f0's f1's its all greek to me fella, its cool you know so much man im still learning here and people like you are why i post your brains are good source of info
im with you on this one and i mean you seem to know your stuff and clearly with all the articles you have posted up your argument is verified.
this guy just doesnt seem to want to accept your answer so ......... you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make em drink.
im glad that you guys are so precise on your fish keeping however im more lax on the whole f1-f0, personally so long as its healthy and not deformed im happy, i mean if i liked it enough to put it in my tank i really dont care beyond that point,
its good to know your stuff though for sure and you guys have shown me lots of stuff.
and i agree, dont sell things as one thing and have it in fact be something else, my stuff were give aways on the net , i rescued my devils, midas, labs, citrons, whatever the heck they are from a 20 gallon prison, people throw them away because they are nasty ..... if you spent all day in your closet you'd be pissy by dinner , in addition i got 2 "throw away" fish and they have spawned and i have no joke like at least 1000 fry, im gonna grow some out, give some to my pops, and probably flog the rest off on the public, but when i do I will sell them as midevils strictly because i have no flippin idea what they are or even where the heck they came from, all i know is there in a better place than where i found them
and there awesome fish.
I have no intent on passing them off as f1's or even pure bred anythings, there mutts ... awesome mutts but mutts none the less
im with you on this one and i mean you seem to know your stuff and clearly with all the articles you have posted up your argument is verified.
this guy just doesnt seem to want to accept your answer so ......... you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make em drink.
im glad that you guys are so precise on your fish keeping however im more lax on the whole f1-f0, personally so long as its healthy and not deformed im happy, i mean if i liked it enough to put it in my tank i really dont care beyond that point,
its good to know your stuff though for sure and you guys have shown me lots of stuff.
and i agree, dont sell things as one thing and have it in fact be something else, my stuff were give aways on the net , i rescued my devils, midas, labs, citrons, whatever the heck they are from a 20 gallon prison, people throw them away because they are nasty ..... if you spent all day in your closet you'd be pissy by dinner , in addition i got 2 "throw away" fish and they have spawned and i have no joke like at least 1000 fry, im gonna grow some out, give some to my pops, and probably flog the rest off on the public, but when i do I will sell them as midevils strictly because i have no flippin idea what they are or even where the heck they came from, all i know is there in a better place than where i found them
and there awesome fish.
I have no intent on passing them off as f1's or even pure bred anythings, there mutts ... awesome mutts but mutts none the less
Well its been a week and a bit since I bought these Devils or Mutantcitdevilrejects to sum members and they've been feed on the highest quality foods including bloodworms krill and color enhancing Tetra food and look at the results already 
Heres the latest update on the development of my Red Devil type cichlid thingys.
Definately coloring up very well now and growing.
Definately coloring up very well now and growing.
Hmmmm interested how all the doubters, from earlier, have been silenced as the true potential of this RED DEVIL comes to light
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