Sudden Ray Death? ... Could it be Hyperplasia?

[jeffers]

very glad to see you post stuff like this up again miles. its nice to see a thread to get you thinking again. I think I need to do some reading up on hyperplasia before i can have a decent explanation myself though.

I do think that there are alot of newer people that might try to say this is the cause of their dead ray when its really not, but maybe some of the older ray keepers has had this happen to them and will have more to say about it.

I do know that the rays that have died in my tanks have been my fault so as of right now i do not have any personal experience with hyperplasia that i know of.

 

[grapedinox]

Oh Miles stitting the pot I see. LOL I always love your posts really makes a person stop and go hmmmm. I think it could be a deffinite cause of death in a portion of "sudden unexplained" ray deaths. Certainly not all, especially with us not knowing any of the rays history prior to purchase on a WC ray. Good thread Miles! hey did your friend ever make it over for "glamour shots" of my group?

 

[joey02]

Perhaps not all of the information is available to the hobbyist? The fish could of been affected long before the aquarists purchased the animal and brought it home.

Good point. This is usually a question asked when a ray dies. "how long have you had the ray for" Which will either elliminate that possibility or not. Sudden death is usually a term used for a ray someone has had for a while, and is well acclimated. Then just up and dies out of the blue.. for no apparent reason. Or at least thats how i interpret sudden death.

Reticulata and Hystrix rays, aka "Teacups" are known for their low prices and small sizes. It is also well known that the exporters will ship 4-8 rays PER BAG. This means, only 1 ray will need to defecate in the bag to spike ammonia for all the rays, thus resulting in hyperplasia (especially if drip acclimated ~ this can make it worse during long trips.).. which may not show signs until weeks later?

it doesnt matter if a ray defecates in the bag. Just by breathing in that bag they are creating ammonia. Defecating in the bag doesnt happen that often. Rays are usually not fed for a few days to reduce the waste in the bag. Rays urinate far more than deficate. 1 ray deficating is nothing compared to 4-8 rays breathing and urinating in the bag.

Ammonia poisoning also doesnt have to be immediate.. it can also cause death weeks later. But this can also be corrected. Keep in mind that rays CAN survive ammonia poisoning as well as hyperplasia.

Are reticulated/hystix rays more sensitive, or is it just their overall collection and transport method due to their small size?

I think we can all agree that retics and hystrix are not a begginers ray. A proper ray keeper can usually keep a ray alive if that ray arrives alive in the box.

While Motoros and other larger rays are shipped 1 per bag/box. If they defecate in the bag during transport, that ray usually dies.

I mentioned this above. A ray deficating in the bag is not going to kill a ray. You could starve a ray to help insure it doesnt do that, but just by breathing, and urinating in the bag, it is creating ammonia. Generally speaking, there are just too many variables that could cause a rays death during shipping, to peg it on hyperplasia.

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Lawler_Hyperplasia.html

Hyperplasia in fish seems to be an effect, not a cause. If your rays are dying of this then it is probably the owners fault through bad husbandry

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Miles]

it doesnt matter if a ray defecates in the bag.

Really?

Just by breathing in that bag they are creating ammonia.

Yeah, urea output.. like I mentioned before.. this is due to their unique osmosis system that produces more urea than you could presume a fish that size could produce.

Defecating in the bag doesnt happen that often.
Rays are usually not fed for a few days to reduce the waste in the bag.

How sure are you? How many rays have you imported? I am not talking about getting them from nearby ray farms either. I am talking about importing them from South America where the exporters may not be as concerned about fasting techniques and/or packaging methods. I imported alot of rays from Peru that deficated in the bag largely in part to them being caught so close to export. Alot of it has to do with quality control before even the importer gets the fish, all are variables in which we won't ever have an exact answer.

Rays urinate far more than deficate. 1 ray deficating is nothing compared to 4-8 rays breathing and urinating in the bag.

1 Ray deficating in the bag ON TOP of the 4-8 rays producing ammonia would be much more detrimental than a ray not doing so.

My point is that a single ray can ruin the lifespan of all the other rays when they are packaged together like that. When you ship larger rays, they are bagged individually, and it lowers the chances of other rays succumbing to ammonia poisoning/hyperplasia. When I imported rays, if they defecated in the bag, they were usually dead within 24 hours.

Ammonia poisoning also doesnt have to be immediate.. it can also cause death weeks later. But this can also be corrected. Keep in mind that rays CAN survive ammonia poisoning as well as hyperplasia.

Perhaps Ammonia Poisoning is being confused with Hyperplasia? What exactly is Ammonia Poisoning, scientifically?

http://www.water-research.net/Watershed/ammonia.htm

It's funny thats the same site that references Gill Hyperplasia as a secondary effect to ammonia poisoning.

Are we trying to differentiate Hyperplasia/Ammonia poisoning? I know they are 2 completely different things, however one causes the other. Are we overlooking the thought that they might coincide much stronger than we know?

"Finkle is Einhorn.. Einhorn is Finkle!! OMGZ!"

I think we can all agree that retics and hystrix are not a begginers ray. A proper ray keeper can usually keep a ray alive if that ray arrives alive in the box.

It's because they are a $5 fish and they are kept in very sub-par condition compared to their larger counter parts. They often keep the small "teacup" rays in huge groups because of stocking limitations. The larger prize rays are kept in individual tanks and are well cared for before shipment. When a fisherman transports rays from river to collector, they will take multiple teacups in a single transport unit, while larger rays always get their own unit due to size. The ammonia exposure, gill damage, etc starts from that point ... and the quality control from there on out is such a huge unknown variable.

Basically, teacups are looked at as "dirt" rays, and are treated as such.. Therefor, they have all sorts of underlying issues before they even reach the Importer.

I mentioned this above. A ray deficating in the bag is not going to kill a ray. You could starve a ray to help insure it doesnt do that, but just by breathing, and urinating in the bag, it is creating ammonia. Generally speaking, there are just too many variables that could cause a rays death during shipping, to peg it on hyperplasia.

I still disagree. Rays deficating makes a big difference.. whether it causes ammonia poisoning or hyperplasia. I know from first hand experience, and not to mention that is the PRIMARY reason they fast the fish, because pooping in the bag kills them!


I do agree that rays produce alot of urea (which breaks down into ammonia), which I stated in my original post.

A huge "miss" that I see is the different opinions on acclimating, specifically drip acclimation. The water chemistry when shipping fish long distances is much different than short distances. Overall increases in ammonia toxicity during acclimating I would say is a huge contributing factor to the misdiagnoses that rays from the wild are "more sensitive".. So perhaps the importer/wholesaler is not acclimating the rays properly, causing hyperplasia, only to have the issue pawned off on the unknowing hobbyist.

What's funny is I never stated that "all rays die from hyperplasia".. or anything close to that .. I was just bringing up the idea as a possibility. I think that you've done a good job in reiterating my points that rays create ammonia during shipping, which causes hyperplasia.

 

[Miles]

This ray poopied in his bag.

 

[Miles]

When a ray is caught from the river and taken to the collector/exporter, they are transported in small tubs such as that pictured below.



When they are freshly caught you have no knowledge of their feeding schedule.

If you were to put 4-5 rays in this same size bucket, the concentration of ammonia through natural osmosis will be much greater, not to mention the chances of defecation would be 4x higher.

The antenna ray pictured was kept in nearly the same volume of water as these freshly caught leopoldi. Keep in mind too that the smaller rays are kept together in groups at the holding facility with primitive filtration. Simple air driven floss filters with low quality biomedia might help a single larger ray, but not multiple smaller ones.

Just somethin' to think about..

 

[joey02]

it doesnt matter if a ray defecates in the bag.

Really?

This was taken out of context per say. I meant in contrast to the shear ammount of waste cotributed from breathing, and "peeing", that it is nothing compared to those.

Quote:

Just by breathing in that bag they are creating ammonia.

Yeah, urea output.. like I mentioned before.. this is due to their unique osmosis system that produces more urea than you could presume a fish that size could produce.

Exactly.

Quote:

Defecating in the bag doesnt happen that often.
Rays are usually not fed for a few days to reduce the waste in the bag.

How sure are you?

Im not sure. I am making an assumption.

How many rays have you imported?

What does that have to do with anything?? You imported some rays, so i know nothing?


I am not talking about getting them from nearby ray farms either. I am talking about importing them from South America where the exporters may not be as concerned about fasting techniques and/or packaging methods.

Agreed, but now we are talking wild caught rays, or captive bred? i thought we were talking about all rays. Do only wild caught rays die from So now we are talking wild caught rays, or captive bred? Or does that even matter? It doesnt matter.. it matters what they went threw, or what they are going threw that lead up to the issue.. again, preventable.


I imported alot of rays from Peru that deficated in the bag largely in part to them being caught so close to export.

So did they all die? thats what happens right? poop = death.

Alot of it has to do with quality control before even the importer gets the fish, all are variables in which we won't ever have an exact answer.

Agreed.

Quote:

Rays urinate far more than deficate. 1 ray deficating is nothing compared to 4-8 rays breathing and urinating in the bag.

1 Ray deficating in the bag ON TOP of the 4-8 rays producing ammonia would be much more detrimental than a ray not doing so.

Agreed, but not enough to kill off the rays.. conditions would have to be just right for that to happen.

My point is that a single ray can ruin the lifespan of all the other rays when they are packaged together like that. When you ship larger rays, they are bagged individually, and it lowers the chances of other rays succumbing to ammonia poisoning/hyperplasia. When I imported rays, if they defecated in the bag, they were usually dead within 24 hours.

So your rays dieing was hyperplasia? or ammonia poison? or accute stress? or handling methods? ect ect ect....

Pick the one that clears you of fault... hyperplasia.

Quote:

Ammonia poisoning also doesnt have to be immediate.. it can also cause death weeks later. But this can also be corrected. Keep in mind that rays CAN survive ammonia poisoning as well as hyperplasia.

Perhaps Ammonia Poisoning is being confused with Hyperplasia? What exactly is Ammonia Poisoning, scientifically?

http://www.water-research.net/Watershed/ammonia.htm

It's funny thats the same site that references Gill Hyperplasia as a secondary effect to ammonia poisoning.

Are we trying to differentiate Hyperplasia/Ammonia poisoning? I know they are 2 completely different things, however one causes the other. Are we overlooking the thought that they might coincide much stronger than we know?

"Finkle is Einhorn.. Einhorn is Finkle!! OMGZ!"

Im not confused at all... both can kill... both are related... i get it.

Quote:

I think we can all agree that retics and hystrix are not a begginers ray. A proper ray keeper can usually keep a ray alive if that ray arrives alive in the box.

It's because they are a $5 fish and they are kept in very sub-par condition compared to their larger counter parts. They often keep the small "teacup" rays in huge groups because of stocking limitations. The larger prize rays are kept in individual tanks and are well cared for before shipment. When a fisherman transports rays from river to collector, they will take multiple teacups in a single transport unit, while larger rays always get their own unit due to size. The ammonia exposure, gill damage, etc starts from that point ... and the quality control from there on out is such a huge unknown variable.

Basically, teacups are looked at as "dirt" rays, and are treated as such.. Therefor, they have all sorts of underlying issues before they even reach the Importer.

So retics die because the way they are handled and shipped?

Quote:

I mentioned this above. A ray deficating in the bag is not going to kill a ray. You could starve a ray to help insure it doesnt do that, but just by breathing, and urinating in the bag, it is creating ammonia. Generally speaking, there are just too many variables that could cause a rays death during shipping, to peg it on hyperplasia.

I still disagree. Rays deficating makes a big difference.. whether it causes ammonia poisoning or hyperplasia. I know from first hand experience, and not to mention that is the PRIMARY reason they fast the fish, because pooping in the bag kills them!


I do agree that rays produce alot of urea (which breaks down into ammonia), which I stated in my original post.

I just finnished saying that rays are usually not fed for a few days prior to shipping.. then you asked if i was sure... now you said the same thing. Funny how that works.. im assuming, that you also assume thats what they do.

My question is this: When it comes to poop, urin, and resperation... which produces ammonia that will impact the ray the fastest? from my understanding, its got to be the poop. Or at least thats what im gathering from you.
So fasting a ray makes them not poop? or does it slow down the metabolism, causing less urinating, and less need for oxygen? hmmmm... gotta be because of the dreaded poop.

A huge "miss" that I see is the different opinions on acclimating, specifically drip acclimation. The water chemistry when shipping fish long distances is much different than short distances. Overall increases in ammonia toxicity during acclimating I would say is a huge contributing factor to the misdiagnoses that rays from the wild are "more sensitive".. So perhaps the importer/wholesaler is not acclimating the rays properly, causing hyperplasia, only to have the issue pawned off on the unknowing hobbyist.


I agree. this could happen.


What's funny is I never stated that "all rays die from hyperplasia".. or anything close to that .. I was just bringing up the idea as a possibility. I think that you've done a good job in reiterating my points that rays create ammonia during shipping, which causes hyperplasia.


I dont think this was your intentions either. but as your title states: "Sudden Ray Death? ... Could it be Hyperplasia?" yes it COULD be.... but probably only one of the many things that could cause a death. There is alot of things that could lead up to an unknown or sudden death. Accute stress being one of them. What happens chemically when a ray is stressed? look into that as well.

All i am gathering from this thread is that this impacts wild caught rays. or at least you last post implys that. Or maybe that was just a perfect example, to fit the conclusion.

 

[joey02]

The ray DIDNT poop in the bag.......

 

[joey02]

When a ray is caught from the river and taken to the collector/exporter, they are transported in small tubs such as that pictured below.



When they are freshly caught you have no knowledge of their feeding schedule.

If you were to put 4-5 rays in this same size bucket, the concentration of ammonia through natural osmosis will be much greater, not to mention the chances of defecation would be 4x higher.

The antenna ray pictured was kept in nearly the same volume of water as these freshly caught leopoldi. Keep in mind too that the smaller rays are kept together in groups at the holding facility with primitive filtration. Simple air driven floss filters with low quality biomedia might help a single larger ray, but not multiple smaller ones.

Just somethin' to think about..

Sudden death effects all rays.. not just wild caught.

Currently, your leaning towards wild caught rays. Which, means not a whole lot is known on the ray like you said.. but that doesnt mean once you get it, it dies from hyperplasia... could be alot of reasons. hyperplasia being one of them...

im not disputing the fact that rays can die from it, or what causes it...

Just the idea that it is preventable.

From your post on that the ray pooped in the bag, and died.... hyperplasia doesnt work that fast from what i gather.

 

[DavidW]

Occam's razor should be applied here.
Instead of looking for the most complicated sounding explanation look for the most simple.