Vontehillos

[NorCaliCichlids]

I had a group of adult Rio Salto a few years back and they look much different than the pics I've seen of the Vontehillo. I found the Rio salto to resemble a Tamasopoensis in body shape. Like Mo says, more elongated looking.

 

[dogofwar]

"Keep in mind that the collection locale is just as much for maintaining the purity of the species. I know lots of folks who keep fish from different collection points separated."

This is absolutely something that I do for all of my Cryptoheros, "convicts", chanchitos, Gymnogeos, etc.

Something to remember is that the habitat creates the fish...and not vice versa. There's a reason that the Hericthys from Rio Salto evolved to have a more elongated body than the others...

But this doesn't mean that every place that a fish is found is a separate, distinct population...especially when the fish in question all come from the same watershed. And this doesn't mean that fish from the same place that look different aren't all the SAME species. For example, a single pull of the net in Lago Nicaragua could bring in a whole array of "Red Devils".

I'm no expert on this area, but I believe that this is a situation where multiple people called the same fish different names..

Matt

 

[the animal guy]

oh my goodness. That is a beautifu fishl.. He looks stiff like a pitbull too. that's healthy.

Hey so now there's four locations of These? Are the four locations in Mexico? Is there anywhere else like a different country that have these? I just wanna know if those 4 locations are all connected.. Im not good with the map and I wanna learn more. Thanks.

 

[cchhcc]

oh my goodness. That is a beautifu fishl.. He looks stiff like a pitbull too. that's healthy.

Hey so now there's four locations of These? Are the four locations in Mexico? Is there anywhere else like a different country that have these? I just wanna know if those 4 locations are all connected.. Im not good with the map and I wanna learn more. Thanks.

Yes, all four collections points are, as you say, connected.....like as in the SAME watershed at the mouth of the SAME river.

 

[baldtaxguy]

I'm innocently asking this question, so keep your agendas in your back pocket. If you can't respond by picking someone's old scab, then don't.

With 4 collection points in the same river, and without any further analysis, are we most likely talking 4 different variants of carps? All 4 appear to have distinct visual characteristics. Can't those variants be identified and sold according to those collection points and corresponding distinct characteristics? Isn't the threshold for determining a distinct species dna analysis? And until then we have four nice looking variants that we, as hobbyists, would appreciate distinguished by suppliers for purposes of establishing our wish lists?

 

[armac]

I am going to catch some from Presa Cuchillo (you can look that one up on Google) in Nuevo Leon, and take some photos. Maybe they are different as well.

Getting a large number of wild fish out of Mexico can be problematic.

 

[Aquamojo]

Yes, all four collections points are, as you say, connected.....like as in the SAME watershed at the mouth of the SAME river.

Actually that's not correct. The area where Laguna Chariel is located is huge...and I believe a more accurate statement is that the area is fed by many smaller rivers.

Don Conkel had said the collection point was north of Chariel. If you take a look at the map you can see a number of unnamed small bodies of water with very little connection to Chariel or L. Tortuga. It wouldn't be a stretch to have one of these with a local moniker. IN the map, Puebla Vieja is the bottom right, then above is Chariel, and above that to the left is Tortuga.

If you want a closer look at the area above. Do a Google map search for: Laguna Chairel, Veracruz-Llave, Mexico

Are they connected....sure. Many small streams and rivers flow back and forth. The real question is are they isolated? And that's pretty apparent. I'm certain fish cross back and forth, but depending on the difficulty and frequency it's very possible that small variations to the Carpinte theme can occur.

Here's the northern tip of Chariel with some small streams/rivers...connecting to another body of water (unnamed on the map BTW). What you can't see on this image is that just slightly north of this there is what appears to be a more marshy area connecting this to Tortuga. One of the thinks Don had said was that the fish was in slightly brackish water....quite possibly occurring in the marshy area.

Again...I am speculating based on the few facts that I have. Rusty is in Mexico now and said he was going to collect in that area with a friend. Perhaps he can fill in some of the blanks when he gets back.


Mo

 

[dogofwar]

There isn't agreement about what constitutes a species...among scientists or hobbyists

there is even less agreement about what constitutes a separate varient within a species.

But every place where fish are collected does not equal a new distinct population or varient of a species. If that were the case, we would have to label the fish collected in each swipe of the net differently!

Matt

I'm innocently asking this question, so keep your agendas in your back pocket. If you can't respond by picking someone's old scab, then don't.

With 4 collection points in the same river, and without any further analysis, are we most likely talking 4 different variants of carps? All 4 appear to have distinct visual characteristics. Can't those variants be identified and sold according to those collection points and corresponding distinct characteristics? Isn't the threshold for determining a distinct species dna analysis? And until then we have four nice looking variants that we, as hobbyists, would appreciate distinguished by suppliers for purposes of establishing our wish lists?

 

[elting44]

I agree. Dogofwar hit the nail on the head.

George, would you not expect to find slight differences in ANY species that you collect? I could go to my local pond and collect sunfish. If all the fish I collected came from one or two breeding beds near each other the fish would certainly have some similar characteristics. But those characteristics may not "exactly" match up to the sunfish on the other side of the pond. Is that a "new" race?

At the end of the day, any ichthyologist will tell you that splitting up fish based on slight variations in coloration (and these that are being discussed are verrrrry slight) is no basis for reclassification.

I'm surprised that the marketing angle gets dismissed so quickly. It seems there are races of common fish unique to just about every vendor.

Agreed.

I am not dismissing that the fish doesn't have a shorter body, slightly shorter fins, and a gold hue, etc. that make its characteristics different than a typical Carpintis or Escondito. Different does not equal new species.

But I am 5'8" and fair skinned, LeBron James is 6'8" and dark skinned. We are both H.Sapiens

And just because the water ways, lakes, streams, rivers etc aren't connected now, doesn't mean they weren't connected the last time a tropical storm dropped 15" of rain on the area, or won't be connected again when the next one does.

With that being said, calling a fish that has been caught from those bodies of water or are offspring from fish caught in that water and calling them that is not just clever marketing, it has merit. A comparison of the Vontehillos, Esconditos, and a typical captive-bred pet store stock Carpintis will have noticeable differences. Hobbyists will pay more for a fish that is not readily available.

I could get a couple grand for my Chevy Cavalier, if I owned a TVR Speed 6 I could sell it for a truckload more cash. There are not a lot of them cruisin' around.

Now if I slapped a sticker on my cavalier saying it was a TVR Speed 6, I would be a tool. But if someone bought it before giving it a good once over and making an educated assessment, then I would be likely to repeat that behavior.

I strongly think that people on this forum are not trying to take advantage of any marketing aspect, rather they are charging a price that they feel the fish is worth. They aren't making people buy them.

 

[dogofwar]

thanks mo - I haven't cracked the code for posting from google earth

the real question is whether these are consistently isolated areas that don't share water...even as the result of periodic floods, etc. One place we collected in Uruguay was a pond next to the rio Uruguay (big river). In the pond were lots of river fish: piranhas, leporinus, big cats. Would these be separate varients than the river? I don't think so because they found their way into this pond (and maybe out of it) during periodic flooding

Also, this is an urban area. I wonder to what extent people, as a result of fishing, etc introduce or move fish.

Matt

Actually that's not correct. The area where Laguna Chariel is located is huge...and I believe a more accurate statement is that the area is fed by many smaller rivers.

Don Conkel had said the collection point was north of Chariel. If you take a look at the map you can see a number of unnamed small bodies of water with very little connection to Chariel or L. Tortuga. It wouldn't be a stretch to have one of these with a local moniker. IN the map, Puebla Vieja is the bottom right, then above is Chariel, and above that to the left is Tortuga.

If you want a closer look at the area above. Do a Google map search for: Laguna Chairel, Veracruz-Llave, Mexico

Are they connected....sure. Many small streams and rivers flow back and forth. The real question is are they isolated? And that's pretty apparent. I'm certain fish cross back and forth, but depending on the difficulty and frequency it's very possible that small variations to the Carpinte theme can occur.

Here's the northern tip of Chariel with some small streams/rivers...connecting to another body of water (unnamed on the map BTW). What you can't see on this image is that just slightly north of this there is what appears to be a more marshy area connecting this to Tortuga. One of the thinks Don had said was that the fish was in slightly brackish water....quite possibly occurring in the marshy area.

Again...I am speculating based on the few facts that I have. Rusty is in Mexico now and said he was going to collect in that area with a friend. Perhaps he can fill in some of the blanks when he gets back.


Mo