Vontehillos

[Aquamojo]

There isn't agreement about what constitutes a species...among scientists or hobbyists

This is true.

But every place where fish are collected does not equal a new distinct population or varient of a species.
Matt

This unfortunately is debatable. If you collect fish from three different areas and wanted to take it to the "nth" degree, it would be separate distinct populations. Not everyone chooses to do it this way. For some it's just a Carpinte. For other more advanced hobbyists as on this board, the population designation, while not needed is an interesting fact to have. Some collection locations do have varying geographic characteristics that may not be common to other locations. Even subtle differences may be enough to evoke a change. Look at the Labridens complex as an example.

thanks mo - I haven't cracked the code for posting from google earth

the real question is whether these are consistently isolated areas that don't share water...even as the result of periodic floods, etc. One place we collected in Uruguay was a pond next to the rio Uruguay (big river). In the pond were lots of river fish: piranhas, leporinus, big cats. Would these be separate varients than the river? I don't think so because they found their way into this pond (and maybe out of it) during periodic flooding

Also, this is an urban area. I wonder to what extent people, as a result of fishing, etc introduce or move fish.

Matt

For what it's worth, print to a PDF, save as a TIFF file.

Regardless of whether the areas have spill over, the fact remains that for the most part access is limited at best. Population isolation would be the strongest single factor in the development of the species. No doubt they "share" water. Check out the Google map. You can see the connection. Areas like that Marsh would likely be more susceptible because of its proximity to both bodies of water.

It is an urban area in Mexico, I can almost guarantee that it's a one way trip to the dinner table. The Carpinte we collected in Chariel years back were LOADED with parasites...leeches, etc...Lots of extra protein.

 

[cchhcc]

Awesome post Mo!

I think it would come down to what once perceives as "differences" in a fish. No one is claiming any of these fish are diferent species (not yet anyway), but in what other species of animal are we expecting to see exact mirror images from specimen to specimen?

Also, what exactly is being used as the standard by which races are different, and what size of watershed is considered large? In some areas topography could determine a very small area to be isolated and a very large area (basins for instance) as relatively UN-isolated.

By the way, if someone wants to go collect the four common "races" of carptinis that are being discussed in this thread, grow them up separately, and once they are adults post some photos we'd have a better discussion. The photos that one key vendor uses as examples of his fish, for instance, are decades old and of a very limited population. For any discussion of racial differences to even be worth having, we need to see dozens of fish first. EVEN THEN, any differences could be the result of idiosyncracies of a given breeding pair whose fry were collected in the wild. One will see differences from fish to fish even when they live side by side.

It is to the point that if carpinits being sold in LFS's in Washington State and those being sold in LFS's in North Carolina are slightly different in appearance, no matter their specific histories, they could be considered "different" or "new" races of carpintis.

Variability of a species is not a monopoly of H. carpinits.

Perhaps I'm just a lumper rather than a splitter though. On the other hand, it is very interesting and a positive contribution to the hobby to keep fish separated by collection points. I support that without hesitation. As long as vendors can provide sufficient assurances that what one buys is in fact legitimate it could provide an new stimulus for sales. DON'T ANYONE TRY TO RESTRICT MY RIGHT TO ASK FOR THOSE ASSURANCES THOUGH! : )

 

[the animal guy]

thanks for the map.

I see where they all came from now.. Any one of the those water with carpintes that is not connected. Should be labeled as a different variant for the hobby. But how can you be sure someone didn't take one from one place and throw it in the other? You never know because it's not really from a different country. they all bunched up in one place.

for the ones with the same water but different town(connected), it's like Im living in a small town with four cities. fro example: A,B,C,&D... Right?

I live in city "A".
I walk to city D to buy food. The police swooped me up in city "D" put me in the box.

That does not mean Im from city "D". Im originally from "A".

Fishes swim and drift around all day everyday. If there's a path they will go.. They dont read signs or keep boundaries.

But If Im from Cali and got arrested in NY then that's a different story.. How'd I get there?
Not in this case though because these locations are in one cluster.

 

[cchhcc]

Animal Guy, good points. Also remember to factor in "natural" stocking that spread fish and wildlife throughout a given area. Predatory birds, floods, and all sorts of other things other than man contribute to the spread of fish.

Anyone dig an artificial pond or lake? You'll find it fully stocked in just a few short years. Give a species like carpintis hundreds to thousands of years and you'll find them far and wide until they can no longer compete or survive a given environment.

 

[dogofwar]

Locations can be used to denote both collection location (ie record the actual place that a fish was caught) and particular varients (what might have been called sub-species in the past).

Fish from multiple locations could all be the same varient...and - barring some isolating mechanism or other factors in their habitat that cause them to evolve in diferent ways - fish from the same watershed (eg multiple locations in the rio panuco drainage) could all be the same varient

I think we're mixing the two uses of "location" in a way that neither is descriptive of location (where in the world is vontehillo?) or varient.

What's keeping a vendor from listing a different carpinte "location" for fish collected every 250 feet along the rio panuco...and naming them the phonetic spelling of the name of the neighborhood in Tampico closest to the spot? I'd argue that this is neither useful for locating the collection spot in the future or differentiating different populations of fish.

But it does give a vendor lots of different fish to sell that have different names than those sold by other vendors

Matt

An unlimited

 

[the animal guy]

I live in city "A".
I walk to city D to buy food. The police swooped me up in city "D" put me in the box.

That does not mean Im from city "D". Im originally from "A".

Fishes swim and drift around all day everyday. If there's a path they will go.. They dont read signs or keep boundaries.

Dont forget the breedings that occured when one fish drifts to another location.. Then there offsprings drift too.. All over the water and through out many many years.. All fishes have their small differences and some of you think it's a variant thing..

I believe there are different Variants. But there are the ones in between that smears the color line so it's hard to say. I know ppl cant tell. Just base o what they hear.. Sometimes a lil common sense can take you away from this mess in the hobby.

to be honest.. I will say that My Escondido, John Rambo's Escondido and Mojo's Escondido show differences too. And they Are all Escondido's I think fro Rapps. I knoe mine and Mojo's are. But they look difference just a lil.

 

[Aquamojo]

thanks for the map.

I see where they all came from now.. Any one of the those water with carpintes that is not connected. Should be labeled as a different variant for the hobby. But how can you be sure someone didn't take one from one place and throw it in the other? You never know because it's not really from a different country. they all bunched up in one place.

for the ones with the same water but different town(connected), it's like Im living in a small town with four cities. fro example: A,B,C,&D... Right?

I live in city "A".
I walk to city D to buy food. The police swooped me up in city "D" put me in the box.

That does not mean Im from city "D". Im originally from "A".

Fishes swim and drift around all day everyday. If there's a path they will go.. They dont read signs or keep boundaries.

But If Im from Cali and got arrested in NY then that's a different story.. How'd I get there?
Not in this case though because these locations are in one cluster.

Maybe I'm just dense...but I have no idea what this means.

...where in the world is vontehillo?

North of Laguna Chariel. More than likely a small isolated body of water with no other importance and a local name. No mystery.

What's keeping a vendor from listing a different carpinte "location" for fish collected every 250 feet along the rio panuco...and naming them the phonetic spelling of the name of the neighborhood in Tampico closest to the spot? I'd argue that this is neither useful for locating the collection spot in the future or differentiating different populations of fish.

But it does give a vendor lots of different fish to sell that have different names than those sold by other vendors

Matt



An unlimited

Nothing stopping them from doing that. I think it's the "trend" right now. No big deal. Buyer always be aware. Ask questions. Educate yourself before you buy.

 

[GMFISHNUT]

Learned alot from reading the responses in this thread,a few good points and some quality info.

 

[GMFISHNUT]

Another pic of what looks like a young male.

 

[baldtaxguy]

Learned alot from reading the responses in this thread,a few good points and some quality info.

Agreed, thanks to all.