Wild Fish..... Economics

[fishguts]

The F# indicates the generation, it doesn't matter if they were pulled from the river/creek/stream/lake/pond in the wild as just free swimming, they still originated as wild fish. If they are to be used as breeders once grown out, they ARE the F0 (wild) breeders, no two ways about it, their offspring will be F1 and so on.

For example, I could go to the LFS and buy 20 convicts to start a breeding program, since they are the first breeders in my program, they are the F0 fish, their offspring would be F1 and further generations would be F2, F3 and so on. The LFS cons are likely nothing more than mixed lineage tank bred mutts, but, I can give them the F0 designation in this case, they are the beginning of the line.

Sorry for following the derail-rail, back on topic. I think that there is a lot of confusion when it comes to prices on wild stock, for example you will rarely find wild Uruguayan fish on our list, simply because it's more effective to bring back the wilds and put them into breeding programs and supply F1 - the cost per fish would be way too high on the wilds. I think that the prices on W/C can be exaggerated in some cases, it all depends on the freight costs and how many stops they make along the way.

like the other guy stated in aquarium terms fo means wild caught to the majority of fishkeepers if i bought a couple jags from a lfs and bred them in my tank then your saying i could sell the adults as fo seeing its the first time they been bred under my watch.. i could never sell a fish to anyone and label it fo if i bought it from a lfs and breeding them myself.

 

[ira]

There are vendors who collect wild fish occasionally but they usually keep them and sell the fry when they spawn, wild fish are offered very rarely by such vendors. It seems that I am the vendor who you are speaking about Chris well I will just make it clear since you have been making comments like this since the VENDOR WAR started a few months ago this when you and your crew started crap after a phone call was placed to caribemob and he told that vendor he was getting fish from me. Since then rumors started that my main source DCT was selling hybrids and deseased fish ect with zero facts to back it up. You and your crew and you know who they are claimed the F0 JD caribemob purchased from me were illegally collected, drug dealing in the area prohibited colltion blah blah blah. Chris you have insinuated that my bocourti are suspicious because they are rare in the wild and you cant understand how they are so plentiful now. I have recieved tons of pms supporting me during that period. I have recieved letters of appology from vendors about these rumors and spoken with another who apologized during a phone call. I respect these people for acknowleging mistakes. Now whenever anyone hears this crap you are shoveling they all know who you are talking about Chris its me Ira Harris you just dont have the B@##s to say it so you speak of vendors and how you dont get the "WILD FISH ECONOMICS" If I am wrong then please correct me and name the vendor you mean.Walmart beats the crap out of the competition and make a fortune selling their products at prices that the competition cant match, to compare a small business to them is not fair to the small business and to claim their products to be substandard to a small business is unrealistic. Well DCT is like Walmart and the vendors on this site are like the mom and pop operations which more plentiful but really dont compete in the same market. I am sure you know that DCT is based in Florida but be informed DCT also owns facilities in Costa Rico and Guatemala and works the governments and coservationists of several nations in CA and SA his credentials are impecable. His organization probably collects more wild CA/SA cichlids in a week than the vendors here and their buddies collect in years. Bottom line he has more sources and access any vendor here. Now for all the haters and doubters out there lets hear the FACTS you have to back up your accusations lets stop beating around the bush, I can give accounts of mistakes made by vendors on this site and I'm guilty of makig some myself. But you and your crew insinuate that his mistakes are intentional and he cannot be forgiven. If members started threads about issues they have had with certain vendors should these vendors be banned? Shamed? Put out of business? What? If the person accepts responsibility and tries to make it right then what more can be reasonably asked of them? On another point about wild fish and wild accusations if a fish is collected in the wild as a .5" fry and is raised to a 14" beast ITS A WILD FISH. If the same .5" fish or group were placed in a pond and raised to adulthood and produce fry they are wild fish and their fry are F1. One of my favorite pairs of wild fish was purchased from Jeff Rapps a pair of psittacus the male was a wild caught adult the female was a 2" wild caught he sold to a customer and was returned as an adult but using the logic from earlier in this post I guess she wasnt wild at all. Yet I have purchased F1 labriden juvies from MO and never questioned the authenticity but unless the parents were adults when they were caught then he was being dishonest? The wild genesdont changs regardless of where they are raised. These comments have been foloting for months they are about me I have ignored most, tried to be the better man but thats it. We all know where your loyalty lies Chris you wear it on your sleve but unless you can back up your childish accusations with FACTS or start questioning your prefered vendor's practices, or authenticity then give it a rest. If the prices that DCT or I charge upset you it dosent mean the fish are not wild or F1 it means you are simply getting a great deal you know more value for your hard earned fish dollars like walmart. If you can prove otherwise please expose me as a fraud otherwise give it a rest. First and foremost I'm a hobbist I treat each member here as a knowlegeable hobbist I dont need to disrespect other vendors to make myself look good and my supporters are too classy to do the same.

 

[BigPic]

Perfect!

That makes my point exactly. When a vendor (you) expresses the economic realities people should take note. "The cost per fish would be way to high on the wilds."

This is true for fish that WE collected, when ordering from collectors, the game changes. You will likely never find a pond bred cardinal tetra, but, they aren't stupidly priced at the LFS level either. Freight is the biggest issue IMHO, the more often it gets on a plane, the higher the price to the hobbiest, that is the reality of it. Bigger fish spread the freight around less than the small ones.

 

[dogofwar]

Wow! is all I can say after working my way through this wall of text...

Matt

There are vendors who collect wild fish occasionally but they usually keep them and sell the fry when they spawn, wild fish are offered very rarely by such vendors. It seems that I am the vendor who you are speaking about Chris well I will just make it clear since you have been making comments like this since the VENDOR WAR started a few months ago this when you and your crew started crap after a phone call was placed to caribemob and he told that vendor he was getting fish from me. Since then rumors started that my main source DCT was selling hybrids and deseased fish ect with zero facts to back it up. You and your crew and you know who they are claimed the F0 JD caribemob purchased from me were illegally collected, drug dealing in the area prohibited colltion blah blah blah. Chris you have insinuated that my bocourti are suspicious because they are rare in the wild and you cant understand how they are so plentiful now. I have recieved tons of pms supporting me during that period. I have recieved letters of appology from vendors about these rumors and spoken with another who apologized during a phone call. I respect these people for acknowleging mistakes. Now whenever anyone hears this crap you are shoveling they all know who you are talking about Chris its me Ira Harris you just dont have the B@##s to say it so you speak of vendors and how you dont get the "WILD FISH ECONOMICS" If I am wrong then please correct me and name the vendor you mean.Walmart beats the crap out of the competition and make a fortune selling their products at prices that the competition cant match, to compare a small business to them is not fair to the small business and to claim their products to be substandard to a small business is unrealistic. Well DCT is like Walmart and the vendors on this site are like the mom and pop operations which more plentiful but really dont compete in the same market. I am sure you know that DCT is based in Florida but be informed DCT also owns facilities in Costa Rico and Guatemala and works the governments and coservationists of several nations in CA and SA his credentials are impecable. His organization probably collects more wild CA/SA cichlids in a week than the vendors here and their buddies collect in years. Bottom line he has more sources and access any vendor here. Now for all the haters and doubters out there lets hear the FACTS you have to back up your accusations lets stop beating around the bush, I can give accounts of mistakes made by vendors on this site and I'm guilty of makig some myself. But you and your crew insinuate that his mistakes are intentional and he cannot be forgiven. If members started threads about issues they have had with certain vendors should these vendors be banned? Shamed? Put out of business? What? If the person accepts responsibility and tries to make it right then what more can be reasonably asked of them? On another point about wild fish and wild accusations if a fish is collected in the wild as a .5" fry and is raised to a 14" beast ITS A WILD FISH. If the same .5" fish or group were placed in a pond and raised to adulthood and produce fry they are wild fish and their fry are F1. One of my favorite pairs of wild fish was purchased from Jeff Rapps a pair of psittacus the male was a wild caught adult the female was a 2" wild caught he sold to a customer and was returned as an adult but using the logic from earlier in this post I guess she wasnt wild at all. Yet I have purchased F1 labriden juvies from MO and never questioned the authenticity but unless the parents were adults when they were caught then he was being dishonest? The wild genesdont changs regardless of where they are raised. These comments have been foloting for months they are about me I have ignored most, tried to be the better man but thats it. We all know where your loyalty lies Chris you wear it on your sleve but unless you can back up your childish accusations with FACTS or start questioning your prefered vendor's practices, or authenticity then give it a rest. If the prices that DCT or I charge upset you it dosent mean the fish are not wild or F1 it means you are simply getting a great deal you know more value for your hard earned fish dollars like walmart. If you can prove otherwise please expose me as a fraud otherwise give it a rest. First and foremost I'm a hobbist I treat each member here as a knowlegeable hobbist I dont need to disrespect other vendors to make myself look good and my supporters are too classy to do the same.

 

[BigPic]

like the other guy stated in aquarium terms fo means wild caught to the majority of fishkeepers if i bought a couple jags from a lfs and bred them in my tank then your saying i could sell the adults as fo seeing its the first time they been bred under my watch.. i could never sell a fish to anyone and label it fo if i bought it from a lfs and breeding them myself.

That is the point, we are using a scientific term in the hobby the wrong way. You can't go back and call it wild, because it's not. It's just a big mix up of terms used improperly.

 

[cchhcc]

Wow Ira! I wasn't trying to target you in any way. I don't even know where that's coming from.

I've got fish from DCT swimming in my tank right now. To imply that I have an axe to grind against DCT is just plain wrong. The very fact that I'm addressing the economics of wild fish collection and sale should do nothing but HELP YOUR business too as it may clear out some of the unscrupulous sellers out there. Heck, I even tried to buy female Rio Heredia dovii from you, but you didn't want to split up pairs. My offer to buy any widows still stands.

As for my "crew" I can't be responsible for what other people say. You are attributing comments to me that must be coming from someone else.

Back on topic, and to give some relevance to my "third party comments," there is a LFS in my area selling wild fish from the DCT stocklist. I just want to know how they can sell, for instance, a large Lyonsi pair for $99 and still make money. They got ten fish in, and I just watch them pick each other off over the course of several months. As is the case with most of their large cichlids, they lose more to aggression than they ever sell. How can they stay in business doing that? They also carry guttalattus, syns, carpintis, fene, nour, roberts, argentea, godmani, intermedia, bifas, gibbiceps, etc.........and many to most of those fish never sell before they die or until they lower their prices to ridiculous levels (which, interestingly enough, match the wholesale pricing on the DCT list). So, basically, they are making NO profit on many of those fish (actually probably losing $ when upkeep and overhead is calculated).

Please don't read anything into this thread that isn't explicitly stated. It's not my intent to be cute or mysterious with my words. Another forum member of note does that, and I think it's really shameful.

 

[jgentry]

That is the point, we are using a scientific term in the hobby the wrong way. You can't go back and call it wild, because it's not. It's just a big mix up of terms used improperly.

I agree completely. But how do we fix something that is now wildly used as the norm. Personally I think they should just be called wild, first generation, and from there it doesn't matter.

Nobody asked me though.

 

[cchhcc]

This is true for fish that WE collected, when ordering from collectors, the game changes. You will likely never find a pond bred cardinal tetra, but, they aren't stupidly priced at the LFS level either. Freight is the biggest issue IMHO, the more often it gets on a plane, the higher the price to the hobbiest, that is the reality of it. Bigger fish spread the freight around less than the small ones.

Understood. However, the last time I bought cardinals I picked up 100 of them. Big little known cichlids aren't quite the same in-demand commodity! Plus, those cardinals probably got shipped in a half a gallon of water. Poor little guys. Haha. At $1.99 per cardinal I don't doubt the seller made a nice profit! Grrrrrrrrr!

Thanks for your perspective, and keep it coming!

 

[buddha1200]

I agree with Ira,this all started when I posted my new pairs I just received from dct(by way of ira who just handled the shipping for me)I paid for the fish and shipping b ut my work schedule just got in the way of delivery so he took care of receiving the fish for me. As far as the price it was a great deal me personally am not as into f#'s as most I just like great fish if so happens they are wild then so be it. I would pay for what I want regardless.I as far as facts of the pair of rare paratheraps I received which started this thread I have documentation to back up the claims made on the fish. I am very glad I had an opportunity to get them doesn't make me better than any other hobbist. And cchhcc(aka chris) why do you all ways start negative threads when someone gets a fish from conkels or ira then turn around and call them trying to get fish(confused) I myself love this hobby and I can't hate anyone for doing their thing. Like I love mojo,s picture and hope one day to be just as good don't mean everytime he post a picture

 

[buddha1200]

Sorry hit submit by mistake,anyway. Don't mean ev erytime he post a pic I am going to start a thread hating on him,bottom line is if all you can do is hate on others you don't need to be in this hobby because someone will always be able to get something you can't.