Your thoughts on breeding BATMAN rays?

[lincolngoh]

I agree that icecream flavors have no moral system to guide them. I liken it to ice-cream cos there is no moral grounds not to breed a trait that one desires. The earliest pioneers and forefathers of fish husbandry have a proud history of breeding Koi and gold fish traits for a thousand years.

Suddenly an upstart come and tell them its wrong? It's flippant to impose whatever misguided moralities on a fish. What to you is a deformity is beautiful and not a deformity to others. Whether it be dogs with smaller heads, shorter legs or rounder skulls, animal husbandry has always bred such thing into dogs and called them pure bred after a few generations of stabilizing the look. Americans have done it as well, with the American Cocker, Spaniels, Boston Terrier and American Pit Bull Terrier. Are you calling these dogs deformed or impure as well?

Davidw, I am saying there is nothing wrong allowing batman rays to breed for these reason.

1. No effects on the wild population

2. No evidence of batman rays affecting the ray gene pool

3. No cruelty towards any fish

4. No health for the fish in question at all

I am just sick of you are just beating about the bush. You talk as if you have a lot of knowledge on the subject but it's just a bunch of nazi propaganda.

I have years of experience breeding and raising rays. Some with batman traits. Since you question my experience, how about you? Kindly tell everyone how much experience you have with batman rays.

 

[T1KARMANN]

But what scientific data do you have to say that its caused by genes vs environment?

i have no scientific data as im not a scientist

but if you do bred batman to batgirl are you willing to keep all the pups and see what furure breeding stock they produce

you will be producing pups that should never be put on to the market

 

[TimTheBadass]

Suddenly an upstart come and tell them its wrong? It's flippant to impose whatever misguided moralities on a fish. What to you is a deformity is beautiful and not a deformity to others. Whether it be dogs with smaller heads, shorter legs or rounder skulls, animal husbandry has always bred such thing into dogs and called them pure bred after a few generations of stabilizing the look. Americans have done it as well, with the American Cocker, Spaniels, Boston Terrier and American Pit Bull Terrier. Are you calling these dogs deformed or impure as well?

Are you seriously trying to deny that batman rays are deformed. If anyone is beating around the bush it's you.

You use dogs as an example. If you compare them to wolf's then yes they are seriously deformed. If you know anything about domestic dogs you would know that many breeds of dog have health issues like weak joints, breathing difficulties and so on. All of which are genetic. Domestic dogs have become acceptable. Personally I wouldn't like deformed rays to become acceptable.

Why do you hold koi and goldfish breeders in such high regard. They are in the same league as flowerhorn and parrot cichlid breeders. These are your real nazi's. They control the breeding of an animal to gain traits they believe are desirable. There's nothing NAZI about letting nature take it's course.

Do you seriously want a "freak" in the stingray hobby like flowerhorn's and parrot cichlids.

 

[Nic]

this is starting to get good

 

[DavidW]

I always find the topic of fish and morality interesting. Here is my question thou, who says what the ray culture/community establishes for our ethics? If we do as a group, then based on the poll, it would be ethical correct? Or is this simply based on a few high ranking ray experts?

Just some things to think about....

The morality and ethics governing animal husbandry , medical and veterinarian practices etc are not only or exclusively applicable to rays but is an old and very well considered part of philosophy known as Bio Ethics.
I didn't invent this code of conduct, nor did any other fish breeder ( although plenty are so ignorant they do unethical things) . The greatest moral and philosophical thinkers from thousands of years of human history and endeavour came up with this ( including Confuscius for Lincoln, who well predates Asian Koi breeding)
Were Confuscius or the ancient Greek or Roman thinkers ( Aristotle, Plato , Hippocrates et al) "upstarts" or is their thinking the basis for the moral compass for all of modern society, East and West?

 

[T1KARMANN]

The morality and ethics governing animal husbandry , medical and veterinarian practices etc are not only or exclusively applicable to rays but is an old and very well considered part of philosophy known as Bio Ethics.
I didn't invent this code of conduct, nor did any other fish breeder ( although plenty are so ignorant they do unethical things) . The greatest moral and philosophical thinkers from thousands of years of human history and endeavour came up with this ( including Confuscius for Lincoln, who well predates Asian Koi breeding)
Were Confuscius or the ancient Greek or Roman thinkers ( Aristotle, Plato , Hippocrates et al) "upstarts" or is their thinking the basis for the moral compass for all of modern society, East and West?

TO DEEP FOR ME

 

[DavidW]

Deep is where the rays live!


Lincoln. I guess one man's meat is another's poison.
I have no real experience with batman rays as I would NEVER select nor breed for that , & if I had the misfortune to have a batman pup it would be sacrificed to science. I would also preferably not breed beyond F1 ( the biology definition) A few people here can vouch for me that I have managed in the past to get several species of rays breeding, I think probably before you were even keeping rays.
IMO your points #'s 3 & 4 are simply wrong

 

[Ade]

Oh geez....I am reading each post more than once, just to keep up..

Bloody interesting thread .....

 

[Nic]

so where is this proof of this being genetic? and if they are bred its going to screw up the gene pool down the road? is there proof or is it just people talking out of there azz?

 

[T1KARMANN]

so where is this proof of this being genetic? and if they are bred its going to screw up the gene pool down the road? is there proof or is it just people talking out of there azz?

probably talking out our AZZ but why take a avoidable risk