Once again, I agree with Miles, and he would be a great person to contact because he knows his DM and I do not. I, like Miles, work my butt off when I am working and am constantly frustrated by ignorant people who do not wish to listen. Sully, I hope you see that people like Miles and I do care about the fish and work hard for them. I joined because I sold dougefresh a 75 tank and stand, he gave me a MFK business card, and I joined. Knowledge is power only when people are willing to listen, and many times we are powerless because we are ignored.
Accuracy In Information
- Thread starter sully
- Start date
WyldFya;565918; said:
There are more knowledgable people.. unfortunately they don't come out and play very often, or they have their heads so far up their asses they become giant fish snobs.
But really is it going to kill you to maybe speak up to give a small piece of advice to someone (shop owner, employee, or random shopper). There are nice sociable ways to bring up a conversation about proper keeping. Soap box aside, sometimes you can make a difference, some times you can't. As for the speaking with your wallet, you are only one person, but if you tell someone then there could be two. And some people just don't know, and would like to know. Example would be the new mom and pop lfs that just opened up about 15 minutes from me. I asked the owner if he was aware what the painting process was and how it effects the fish, and he said that he had no clue but he would do the research for himself, and sometimes that’s all you can ask for. As for the *** munch from a bigger store that told me that he really did care about the fish but profit was more important to him, well some people you can't change, but you can sure have a reasonably loud conversation with him that attracts other customers that were equally discussed with him. You win some you lose some.
i guess a few of the comments so far sum up why the problem still exists. We are not out to change the world. All we are after is having chains provide accurate information to buyers. Information that can be utilized to begin the learning process. The other problems come after the first. Have to start somewhere. And, if you don't the same crap will go on and people can rant about it forever.
Sort of like voting--if you do it you can *****. if you don't you can't.
Send your letters yet?
Sort of like voting--if you do it you can *****. if you don't you can't.
Send your letters yet?
sully;570498; said:
Miles and I want them to be accurate, but even if they are, people aren't going to pay much attention to them.
I, too, am a part of the grass-roots effort that is No Clowns in a Cube or Accuracy in Information.
I, too, worked at a PETsMART not so long ago. (2000-2002)
I, too, had customers who were jerks and wouldn't listen to a thing I said or showed them (like the old guy who kept trying to keep oscars in 5 gallon tanks).
I, too, was an unusual employee in that I knew what I was talking about. I frequented what sites I could (there weren't AS many back then) and would read each and every magazine I could on lunch breaks and at home. I read everything I could get my hands on.
I DO walk into my PETsMART and out without speaking to any of the people that work in the Aquatics section.
Why?
Because I have talked to them in the past. I have stood and listened to them read to people the information on the signage, that Clown Loaches are okay in 20 gallons. That Pacus are okay in a 55. That Panagasius cats will go great with a Clown Knife in a 55.
I DO remember that the majority of my customers wanted to do it right. That they were happy to get good advice from a PETsMART employee.
And because of all these things, I DO support the efforts behind the Accuracy in Information Resource Group. Just because something isn't going to fix every customer doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted. I can't make the old guy, or your mother/son team LESS arrogant. But I can help to make sure that when that newby store employee reads off of the tank cards, he is reading CORRECT information. My actions, my letters, my efforts can help out the person who is browsing and looking to select the correct fish for his or her tank before the sales person comes to them.
I am not usually called optimistic by friends and family, so Sully, I don't think it is your youthful optimism at work here. I think it is a belief that if we can do something to help even a small fragment of the fish buying population, then we should. And if we don't, then we are arrogant, stuck up a-holes, and whatever else it is that Miles called us. I believe that if we all give just a tiny amount of our time (the 10 minutes it takes to write an email, for instance) then we can make this hobby better.
And if we don't do this, if we continue to allow stores to get away with selling a pacu or other large tank-bustersto customers based on inaccurate information, I believe that the federal government will step in and regulate the hobby in our stead. I don't want that to happen, ever.
It's not going to help everyone, including the most assinine of the people out there buying fish. But I truly believe that the vast majority of customers can be educated and can learn to treat fish in a humane manner.
I, too, worked at a PETsMART not so long ago. (2000-2002)
I, too, had customers who were jerks and wouldn't listen to a thing I said or showed them (like the old guy who kept trying to keep oscars in 5 gallon tanks).
I, too, was an unusual employee in that I knew what I was talking about. I frequented what sites I could (there weren't AS many back then) and would read each and every magazine I could on lunch breaks and at home. I read everything I could get my hands on.
I DO walk into my PETsMART and out without speaking to any of the people that work in the Aquatics section.
Why?
Because I have talked to them in the past. I have stood and listened to them read to people the information on the signage, that Clown Loaches are okay in 20 gallons. That Pacus are okay in a 55. That Panagasius cats will go great with a Clown Knife in a 55.
I DO remember that the majority of my customers wanted to do it right. That they were happy to get good advice from a PETsMART employee.
And because of all these things, I DO support the efforts behind the Accuracy in Information Resource Group. Just because something isn't going to fix every customer doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted. I can't make the old guy, or your mother/son team LESS arrogant. But I can help to make sure that when that newby store employee reads off of the tank cards, he is reading CORRECT information. My actions, my letters, my efforts can help out the person who is browsing and looking to select the correct fish for his or her tank before the sales person comes to them.
I am not usually called optimistic by friends and family, so Sully, I don't think it is your youthful optimism at work here. I think it is a belief that if we can do something to help even a small fragment of the fish buying population, then we should. And if we don't, then we are arrogant, stuck up a-holes, and whatever else it is that Miles called us. I believe that if we all give just a tiny amount of our time (the 10 minutes it takes to write an email, for instance) then we can make this hobby better.
And if we don't do this, if we continue to allow stores to get away with selling a pacu or other large tank-bustersto customers based on inaccurate information, I believe that the federal government will step in and regulate the hobby in our stead. I don't want that to happen, ever.
It's not going to help everyone, including the most assinine of the people out there buying fish. But I truly believe that the vast majority of customers can be educated and can learn to treat fish in a humane manner.
Linda Scott with PetSmart's Corp Communication department has been sending responses to individuals throughout the course of the week as result of letters and e.mails concerning the need for "Accuracy In Information". It is an interesting e.mail and will be posted in its entirety at www.noclownsinacube.net over the weekend. It was a thoughtful answer. Unfortunately it has created the need for additional help and assistance.
We are soliciting photos from hobbyists of tank reared specimens of certain species. here is what we are after:
Clown Loach / Botia macracantha / Specimens in excess of 7"TL
Tin Foil Barb / Barbus schwanenfeldi / Specimens in excess of 8"TL
Green Terror / Aequidens rivulatus / Specimens in excess of 6" TL
Midas Cichlid / Amphilophus citrinellus / Specimens in excess of 8" TL
Oscar Varieties / Astronotus ocellatus / Specimens in excess of 10"TL
Jack Dempsey / Cichlasoma octofasciatum / Specimens in excess of 6"TL
Texas Cichlid / Cichlasoma cyanoguttatum / Speimen in excess of 6"TL
We will need to be able to visually verify the TL in the photos. And, information regarding tank size and age of fish would be very beneficial.
Our photo gallery link: http://www.noclownsinacube.net/gallery/index.php
We need the support of hobbyists to accomplish this. The conversation with retailers must remain an active one. Your help is appreciated. If you have any questions about our effort feel free to PM me.
If you are gifted with the camera and have the ability to visually document the TL of your fish, but don't have the specimens we listed above, visit our site. Click on the Retailer v. Reality link. Scroll through the list and find the fish with disparities between the retailers and the species information listed. If you have a species with a disparity of significance, take a photo of that species and upload the photos to our gallery.
We are soliciting photos from hobbyists of tank reared specimens of certain species. here is what we are after:
Clown Loach / Botia macracantha / Specimens in excess of 7"TL
Tin Foil Barb / Barbus schwanenfeldi / Specimens in excess of 8"TL
Green Terror / Aequidens rivulatus / Specimens in excess of 6" TL
Midas Cichlid / Amphilophus citrinellus / Specimens in excess of 8" TL
Oscar Varieties / Astronotus ocellatus / Specimens in excess of 10"TL
Jack Dempsey / Cichlasoma octofasciatum / Specimens in excess of 6"TL
Texas Cichlid / Cichlasoma cyanoguttatum / Speimen in excess of 6"TL
We will need to be able to visually verify the TL in the photos. And, information regarding tank size and age of fish would be very beneficial.
Our photo gallery link: http://www.noclownsinacube.net/gallery/index.php
We need the support of hobbyists to accomplish this. The conversation with retailers must remain an active one. Your help is appreciated. If you have any questions about our effort feel free to PM me.
If you are gifted with the camera and have the ability to visually document the TL of your fish, but don't have the specimens we listed above, visit our site. Click on the Retailer v. Reality link. Scroll through the list and find the fish with disparities between the retailers and the species information listed. If you have a species with a disparity of significance, take a photo of that species and upload the photos to our gallery.
Thanks for all your help. Hobbyists coming together in a cooperative spirit supporting a worthwhile effort produces results! Progress is being made. An update of details:
We have obviously been sending letters and e.mails. Turns out lots of them. They made it to the desks of the addressees and were routed to the DVM responsible for Quality Assurance.
We have spoken with Dr. Saint-Erne. We have exchanged e.mails. The topic of concern that is the common thread of the exchanges is Accuracy In Information as it relates to:
Context of data provided. Point of applicability to the time continuum defined by the life of the particular fish.
Point of Origin. Turns out that the data provided (South America, Africa ) was not intended as consumer data. Rather it is plan-o-gram data for use by store associates when stocking tanks. A bit confusinglol.
Fish Size. The primary source to be utilized was provided nearly two weeks ago. PETsMART has suggested several secondary sources as well as asking for hobbyist input for additional resources.
Stocking Guidelines. Currently the 1 per gallon rule. They will examine alternative methods.
Tank Size. They recognize clarity of information issue. Currently defined by need at time of purchase. We are striving to achieve a size based upon authoritative resources that describe typical size achieved in home aquaria. A tough task.
Additives. Some signage suggests a certain additive. The utility of which is questionable depending upon actual chemistry of source water and changes that may be occurring as a consequence of substrate of other décor.
Care Guide water testing description.
The Care Guides in general.
The discussions and correspondence have demonstrated the willingness of PETsMART to include hobbyists and customers in the process. It does not mean that every item people dislike or could argue with will be changed. Rather, the information will be provided in a fashion that is clear to the consumer and is clearly based on authoritative resources. We can ask for no better commitment than that.
We have more detail, and more detail will be posted over the weekend, than this for viewing and comment on our board. We will select critical passages from additional correspondence exchanged. We will extract not edit any comments. At the same time the extracts will be provided with any commentary required to place them in context.
We do not wish to misrepresent or allow individuals to misconstrue the discussions that have occurred. At the same time we have no desire to present verbatim transcripts and copies. PETsMART does have competitive and confidentiality concerns. We will honor those very legitimate concerns. They have fish to sell. We have fish to buy. Open and honest discussions can be held only when the concerns of all parties are respected.
The discussions have only bolstered and reaffirmed our respect for PETsMART as a responsible retailer concerned with Responsible Husbandry and the Humane and Ethical treatment of animals.
We have obviously been sending letters and e.mails. Turns out lots of them. They made it to the desks of the addressees and were routed to the DVM responsible for Quality Assurance.
We have spoken with Dr. Saint-Erne. We have exchanged e.mails. The topic of concern that is the common thread of the exchanges is Accuracy In Information as it relates to:
Context of data provided. Point of applicability to the time continuum defined by the life of the particular fish.
Point of Origin. Turns out that the data provided (South America, Africa ) was not intended as consumer data. Rather it is plan-o-gram data for use by store associates when stocking tanks. A bit confusinglol.
Fish Size. The primary source to be utilized was provided nearly two weeks ago. PETsMART has suggested several secondary sources as well as asking for hobbyist input for additional resources.
Stocking Guidelines. Currently the 1 per gallon rule. They will examine alternative methods.
Tank Size. They recognize clarity of information issue. Currently defined by need at time of purchase. We are striving to achieve a size based upon authoritative resources that describe typical size achieved in home aquaria. A tough task.
Additives. Some signage suggests a certain additive. The utility of which is questionable depending upon actual chemistry of source water and changes that may be occurring as a consequence of substrate of other décor.
Care Guide water testing description.
The Care Guides in general.
The discussions and correspondence have demonstrated the willingness of PETsMART to include hobbyists and customers in the process. It does not mean that every item people dislike or could argue with will be changed. Rather, the information will be provided in a fashion that is clear to the consumer and is clearly based on authoritative resources. We can ask for no better commitment than that.
We have more detail, and more detail will be posted over the weekend, than this for viewing and comment on our board. We will select critical passages from additional correspondence exchanged. We will extract not edit any comments. At the same time the extracts will be provided with any commentary required to place them in context.
We do not wish to misrepresent or allow individuals to misconstrue the discussions that have occurred. At the same time we have no desire to present verbatim transcripts and copies. PETsMART does have competitive and confidentiality concerns. We will honor those very legitimate concerns. They have fish to sell. We have fish to buy. Open and honest discussions can be held only when the concerns of all parties are respected.
The discussions have only bolstered and reaffirmed our respect for PETsMART as a responsible retailer concerned with Responsible Husbandry and the Humane and Ethical treatment of animals.
Sounds good 
but I still believe, no sign is going to be better than a knowledgeable associate catching the fish. Maybe new signs will make the associates and customers more aware, so everyone benefits.
but I still believe, no sign is going to be better than a knowledgeable associate catching the fish. Maybe new signs will make the associates and customers more aware, so everyone benefits.