Hybridizing Irresponsible?

[Zoodiver]

If we keep going a this rate, we won't have species at all, just 'breeds' like dogs. And then due to a future "endangered status", we won't be allowed to have FW rays in the US at all. USFW /Lacey Act will prohibit the genus instead of just certain species.

 

[T1KARMANN]

to be truthful no one trusts anyone

when i had pups that took a long time to turn black people said HYBRID
i have also been told by someone who knows their stuff that most of the mega spot so called p14 galaxy royal or what ever you want to call them are hybrids you just need to look at the length of the tail its much longer than a traditional p14

as far as i know Asia is not a problem right now as they are not shipping many rays out they are keeping most of the stock for future breeding

they are desperate for new blood in Asia

The only way to guarantee pure blood is to buy from someone you trust and keep one type of ray per tank/pond

the other problem we have is with inter breeding when most people find a breeder they trust they don't buy 1 pup from each litter they will buy 1 male and as many female as they can

the next 5 years is do or die for the ray trade as we know it once Asia start exporting

 

[Big Daves Rays]

with our economy the way it is going, who'll be able to afford an inbred, mutt ray for 5000 from asia anyway?

 

[rayman]

that most of the mega spot so called p14 galaxy royal or what ever you want to call them are hybrids you just need to look at the length of the tail its much longer than a traditional p14

Yeah, there were some discussion and allegations here in Germany. It is funny, that one breeder with three different species in the same tank was badly against hybrids. And he was sure that his rays would never produce hybrids. Later he was breeding some cf. histrix x p14 by accident (pictures in another thread from royalray).

As long as we did not know the natural variation of a species it is very difficult to say what is pure and what is hybrid. I had both p14 variants from my wildcaught breeding pair:

1. short tail, small number of spots, quick darkening
2. long tail, many and large spots, long time untill black

Another p14 variant are these with many small spots like yours and Stefans.
I did always say your pups are pure and the double and triple spots come from the grandma.

In henlei, schroederi, motoro there are specimen with long tail and short tail too. Sign for hybridisation or the variation of the pure species?

I think one big problem is, that we did not know if our wildcaught rays are pure blood. Some of the wild rays are hybrids and sometimes the coloration is strange, but some show the pattern of a pure species. See the work of Toffoli, 3 from his 36 rays show the pattern of one species, but the DNA of another, and he suggest that one possibility is hybridisation.

 

[SovietFireExtinguisher]

All your countrymen need to do is keep voting for conservative governments and then the full flushing of your country down the the proverbial pooper will be complete. Who didn't have some of their best years under Clinton? Just my distant opinion.

 

[Zoodiver]

All your countrymen need to do is keep voting for conservative governments and then the full flushing of your country down the the proverbial pooper will be complete. Who didn't have some of their best years under Clinton? Just my distant opinion.

this isn't really a political debate.

 

[SovietFireExtinguisher]

this isn't really a political debate.

Agreed, it isin't at all, hence the ""

 

[T1KARMANN]

Yeah, there were some discussion and allegations here in Germany. It is funny, that one breeder with three different species in the same tank was badly against hybrids. And he was sure that his rays would never produce hybrids. Later he was breeding some cf. histrix x p14 by accident (pictures in another thread from royalray).

As long as we did not know the natural variation of a species it is very difficult to say what is pure and what is hybrid. I had both p14 variants from my wildcaught breeding pair:

1. short tail, small number of spots, quick darkening
2. long tail, many and large spots, long time untill black

Another p14 variant are these with many small spots like yours and Stefans.
I did always say your pups are pure and the double and triple spots come from the grandma.

In henlei, schroederi, motoro there are specimen with long tail and short tail too. Sign for hybridisation or the variation of the pure species?

I think one big problem is, that we did not know if our wildcaught rays are pure blood. Some of the wild rays are hybrids and sometimes the coloration is strange, but some show the pattern of a pure species. See the work of Toffoli, 3 from his 36 rays show the pattern of one species, but the DNA of another, and he suggest that one possibility is hybridisation.

im not a great lover of hybrids but if thats what people want and are willing to pay top $$$ for them then people will breed them

me myself will try to keep p14 as pure as i possably can and have no intention of adding other types of ray to my tank

P14 KEEP IT REAL

 

[rk59]

Hi Stefan,

in my previous post I didn't mean hybrids which have been bred in captivity by accident. This may happen under some circumstances and in that case it will happen in relatively small quantities IMHO. If the owner will sell as a hybrid and the buyer hopefully avoids breeding with this specimen there is no problem at all.

I said I would never buy a pure blood pup from a breeder who are producing hybrids permanently in large quantities in parallel with pure breds. In this case I insinuate his intention of breeding rays is mostly based on financial aspects. This breeder will sell you what ever you will ask for independent from the original ancestry. This kind of breeder should loose his trustworthy in the ray owner community.

I'm happy that there are some breeders in Germany and the Netherlands like the already mentioned ones who can be trusted in this regard.
Best regards
Reiner

 

[Zoodiver]

....I think one big problem is, that we did not know if our wildcaught rays are pure blood. Some of the wild rays are hybrids and sometimes the coloration is strange, but some show the pattern of a pure species. See the work of Toffoli, 3 from his 36 rays show the pattern of one species, but the DNA of another, and he suggest that one possibility is hybridisation.

Which DNA method of testing was used?
I was under the impression no documentaion was around to show wild hybrids.