Overcrowding

[terd ferguson]

I didnt say the situation wasnt possible, merely stating his poll was inconclusive and the answers were too general (ex: I doubt you could put 15 dovii in a tank and expect it to work, or 1 dovii, 3 red terrors, 7 convicts, 5 eartheaters, 3 robertsoni and a chocolate...thats what I mean by "too general" because you know someone would read this topic and think that they could try it.) Theyd need to be of similar size & temperament etc.

A local shop near me has about 15 foot long+ sa/ca's in a 180 and he swears thats how he keeps the aggression down. I am just not too into seeing 15 fish crammed together in an "unnatural" setting. I like more realistic looking situations, which you seem to have done a good job with, judging from your pictures. I myself have a similar setup. That being said, you are 1 person out of how many on here that have tried it and have opposite experiences? Just because it works for 1 person doesnt solidify that it works 100% of the time to me. Trust me, I wish it did (especially in other aspects of life). It also sounds like you were willing to put way more effort, cashflow and time into it than others and maybe even myself.

Im with you on it though and trying it myself. I currently have 6 parachromis, 2 amphil & 1 Herichthys in a 280 (which I know isnt technically overstocked, but Im hoping by them all living together there will be less aggression towards each other) and its going ok for now, but they arent quite the sizes yours are. The trimac is the biggest *** of them all, being next to the smallest. I hope it works, but Im prepared to remove the trouble makers as they show themselves.

I too enjoy watching the cohabitation of them interacting and feeding...and territorial disputes. They each have their own little section of the tank and seem to enjoy it.

I don't disagree with anything you've said. Except the "unnatural setting" part. At the end of the day, we're all keeping fishes in little glass boxes.

 

[terd ferguson]

oops, double tap.

 

[terd ferguson]

The reason overcrowding is possible and healthy with Africans is because that is the way they exist in the wild. The population densities are very high, yet the species have developed overlapping feeding techniques which eliminates much of the aggression between various species (to a significant degree at least). Even among different species of herbivores there is a high degree of feeding variability.

New world cichlid densities aren't as high. There may be as many fish in a given body of water, but they are spread out comparatively more as compared to rift lake Africans that are primarily focussed on the rocky outcroppings.

New world cichlids aren't as specialized in feeding as are Africans, and different new world species often breed in very similar manners. Competition for similar food sources and breeding territory makes inter and intra-specific competition higher with new worlds. Add to that their much larger sizes and it is very difficult to support any intentional overcrowding as anything but fallacious.

Conspecific aggression can be high in both types, but inter-specific aggression is lower among Africans in many cases, and the smaller size of the Africans makes it much easier to simulate natural conditions. The territorial boundaries of a demasoni can much more easily provided than that of a citrinellus. Interestingly, Midas cichlids outside of breeding can in fact be fairly sociable in the wild, but the volume of water needed to see that behavior is much greater than most will accept. Also, that they are in a constant desire to breed in captivity (due in part to the non-stop availability of food) makes their territoriality and related space requirements increase exponentially.

At the end of the day, it is an unfortunate fact the the vast majority of all fish are maintained in conditions that barely exceed survivable, and too many fishkeepers equate surviving with thriving. There are several examples on this and other sites of what is, IMO, cruel treatment.

You make good points with regards to Africans vs. New Worlds and are 100% correct in every way. But, even though overstocking to reduce nuisance aggression works for different reasons due to the differing natural requirements of the two, it still can work. Just because it works for a different reason doesn't invalidate the results.

As to your last point about surviving vs. thriving, I'd have to agree with you. You are absolutely correct. Too many people in our hobby DO equate "just surviving" (poor coloration, shredded fins, battle scars, sunken belly, etc.) with "thriving" for the simple reason their fishes are still alive. Nevermind the fact that they are far from "happy", they haven't murdered each other yet so they must be doing great (with poor coloration, shredded fins, etc.), right? For an even greater number of others, fishkeeping is just a novelty with no concern given to the health of their fishes. But, even though that may exist here, I'd like to think that MFK sets the watermark as far as responsible, healthy fishkeeping. I've not seen a forum with such a high percentage of responsible fishkeepers as I have here. That's why I love this place. The FISH are what's important.

With that said, I wouldn't think my setup is even in the same ballpark as "cruel treatment" even though it probably is and has been overstocked. And I don't think you're lumping me in with the "bad" fishkeepers, I'm just making a point. In fact, I'd venture to say that my fishes are probably better off in my tank than in the wild. I mean, they're still in a relatively tiny glass box, but they don't suffer from predation and are in fact thriving. All my fishes that are sexually mature and have a mate are breeding and all are at their full growth potential or well on their way. None have to suffer through lean times when there's little or no prey to feed on. They are offered pristine and ideal conditions in a space much larger than 95% of those in our hobby can supply. A member here, nc_nutcase used to have a sig line that said something like "minimum requirements equal minimum happiness". That rings true every time.

So, to sum up, it is in fact possible to overstock big territorial New World cichlids in an effort to reduce nuisance aggression towards tankmates. It just takes a special keeper willing to put forth the effort to do it in a way where the fish come first. The sad truth is that people like me (and many here on MFK) are in the minority.

terd ferguson ftw...again.../thread.

In all seriousness, cchhcc, I applaud your atitude and philosophy. I wish more in our hobby felt the same way.

 

[fishguts]

i dont see how in anyway you can say there are more mfkers that just want there fish to survive then thrive. everyone on this site knows as soon as a fish is pictured that looks beaten or frayed fins or in unhealthy water conditions tank size etc... they get jumped on right away from the people who do care about there fish. if people mistreat there fish around here then they hear about or get flamed. i see to many nice setups and healthy fish to say most mfk fishkeepers are bad fishkeepers and just want survival. most mfk keepers are experienced keepers and keep fish the right way.

 

[G PADRE]

decrease aggression i don't think so (could be possible)..... In my 125g all my fish (buttakoferi, 2 mated rd devls, blood parrot and snook) have staked out their territories and they defend it with sometimes great ferocity

 

[terd ferguson]

i dont see how in anyway you can say there are more mfkers that just want there fish to survive then thrive. everyone on this site knows as soon as a fish is pictured that looks beaten or frayed fins or in unhealthy water conditions tank size etc... they get jumped on right away from the people who do care about there fish. if people mistreat there fish around here then they hear about or get flamed. i see to many nice setups and healthy fish to say most mfk fishkeepers are bad fishkeepers and just want survival. most mfk keepers are experienced keepers and keep fish the right way.

I'm saying the vast majority of us on MFK care about the fishes and care enough to do it right. But we still have members that will tolerate tankmate murders again and again. There are some here that revel in the gladiator style combat. I said some, not the majority or most. But in our hobby overall (bigger than MFK), the vast majority of fishes being kept are in less than ideal conditions due to a number of reasons. Lack of knowledge, lack of caring, lack of maintenance, goldfish in a bowl/oscar in a 10g syndrome, to name but a few.

I hope we understand each other. MFK is a refuge for those that wish to be fishkeepers rather than fish havers. That's why I love this place. It's about the FISHES.

 

[cchhcc]

Good post Terd.

Perhaps it is the term "overcrowding" that is misleading. Provided there is plenty of space for all, the presence of lots of fish will certainly make it tough for one fish to be singled out. In fact, I had a breeding pair of dovii (with an 18"+ male) breed in a 1500 gallon pond without any injurious aggression to the other fish in the pond. Those other fish varied from 5" to over a foot (and had their own fry too). But again, that was in 1500 gallons. Attempting to do anything similar in a 125 or 180 is just futile.

Really, there is no reason to have all these giant fish if one doesn't also have giant room. There is a suitable substitute for almost every giant species. For instance, a grammodes is practically the same thing as a dovii, only in a much smaller package.

 

[fishguts]

I'm saying the vast majority of us on MFK care about the fishes and care enough to do it right. But we still have members that will tolerate tankmate murders again and again. There are some here that revel in the gladiator style combat. I said some, not the majority or most. But in our hobby overall (bigger than MFK), the vast majority of fishes being kept are in less than ideal conditions due to a number of reasons. Lack of knowledge, lack of caring, lack of maintenance, goldfish in a bowl/oscar in a 10g syndrome, to name but a few.

I hope we understand each other. MFK is a refuge for those that wish to be fishkeepers rather than fish havers. That's why I love this place. It's about the FISHES.

agreed.

 

[Arthur]

Alright, overcrowding works, but you MUST take care of the tank. The better option is to just keep a few LARGE fish per tank.

The only way I would attempt a large community tank with sa/ca is if I had a large tank and a few other smaller large tanks so that if they didn't work in the community setting they could have their own tank.

IME, community tanks are hit and miss, some work and some don't. You better be ready for the ones that don't if you want to try it.

 

[terd ferguson]

decrease aggression i don't think so (could be possible)..... In my 125g all my fish (buttakoferi, 2 mated rd devls, blood parrot and snook) have staked out their territories and they defend it with sometimes great ferocity

You bring up an interesting point. Some species, like your red devils, are more known for killing tankmates than others. Some, more for spite than territory. Species selection is as important as anything else should one wish to have a big community. This again, is but a small part of my philosophy on how to make this work. A laid back specimen is a happy specimen and doesn't stress out his tankmates with constant nipping, chasing and liplocking. Stress leads to nuisance aggression. Again, this is different that beingterritorial.

I realize the irony of my above statements with two dovii on the way as I type, lol. But, it's like I said. You take each and every variable and manipulate those to work for you rather than against you. Species selection (and even further, selection of an individual specimen specifically for their "atitude") can go along way to help your chances of success. But, at the end of the day, it's still a gamble.

One thing is sure when trying to put large territorial predators together - that is that nothing is for sure. Look, I would be lying if I said luck wasn't a big part of my success. It is, but I'd like to think it has something to do with the way I handle my fish business too. And as soon as you think you've got it all figured out, guapotes can make you look foolish.