SICK FISH atypical columnaris?

[tlindsey]

Have you tested your water?

Yes

If I did not test my water...

...I recognize that I will likely be asked to do a test, and that water tests are critical for solving freshwater health problems.

Do you do water changes?

Yes

What percentage of water do you change?

21-30%

How frequently do you change your water?

Every week

If I do not change my water...

...I recognize that I will likely be recommended to do a water change, and water changes are critical for preventing future freshwater health problems.

Sick since DECEMBER!
Was better and relapsed in February. For those with short attention spans, feel free to skip to whatever part you need to since this is a bit of a salow please find:

1. summary
2. symptoms/current condition
3. full timeline and prior treatment details
4. Our ideas- need advice on which meds to try next

Summary:
Black moor, 3.5 years old, 37 gallon tank (only fish) and has mix of live and artificial plants. Tank was established for several years before he moved in as we had other fish that moved to a 120g tank. Typically chem test w/API master kit 2x a week and 20-30% water changes weekly, more if needed (like if he’s had peas recently). Diet is mix of fresh food, flakes and wafers. He has been hand fed since December as he can no longer swim upright. We had been getting assistance from an actual ichthyologist student but he’s been unavailable and we can’t continue to wait. This appears to be an atypical columnaris bacterial infection or something similar. He initially responded to antibiotics but after being nearly healed he hurt himself on the gravel again and now he’s covered in spots. The spots seem a little different but it’s still our feeling it’s a relapse rather than something new. He’s now in a bare bottom tank to avoid injuring himself again. He initially responded to another round of antibiotics but now seems to be getting worse and we need advice on next medication to use.


Symptoms:
Began with injury in gravel & afterwards appeared to have washed out scales and areas of descaling. Always white, no pink or red, NEVER fuzzy and these stuck to areas of injury initially but spread over his body. Nearly healed in January he suffered another injury and new white spots appeared. These slightly differed in appearance so it’s hard to tell if they are new or a relapse but overall it’s likely they are a relapse. The main difference is now instead of looking descaled, it looks like theres white on the surface of his scales, except for one larger spot which is where he hurt himself. They have now worsened despite medication.


Treatment Details and Full Timeline:
Our little guy began slowing down and we noticed he had some cuts like he had been digging in gravel. He seemed to have some vision issues and difficulty swimming which we read may be normal given his type and heavy fins. This continued to worsen and the areas of injury had a few spots where he looked white and descaled. He was lying on his at the bottom of the tank in December and we got help from we were able to get help long distance from a semi professional (fish vet in college) and treated the tank with methylene blue.

The fish improved almost immediately but after a few days he seemed to plateau so we did a round of kanaplex. We didn’t see an immediate response with kanaplex like we had with the MB but over time he kept healing slowly, and by January he was almost fully healed (though still unable to swim upright). We had a short period of trying to rehab his swim bladder and fit him for a life vest when he injured himself on gravel again.

Relapse or something new we don’t know. But at this point it was February and new spots appeared at these injuries but quickly spread and you’ll have to see the pictures they don’t look just descaled anymore. Now there are areas that look like he’s been brushed with something, but they don’t feel raised. Again- NOT fuzzy, feels like slime coat and not really different than the rest of his body with one exception: it does seem… softer if I can use that word, like the scale is gone and could push right through him.

We tried the MB again, this time as a dip rather than the whole tank. He didn’t do well w/2x a day (stress was easy to tell) so we cut back to once daily and he initially improved - then plateaued - then worsened again. We know we need to try another medication but aren’t sure which one to do next.


Ideas/Need advice:
Meds we could try: (mostly from the 2 links below)
LFS carries maracyn, erythromycin or tetracycline.
I’ve seen notes online about possible treatments with oxytetracycline and/or nifurpirinol or combination of nitrofurazone and kanamycin but no notes on how (comments on the link above mention kanamycin may “kill the kidneys on goldfish”)
Or I could order furan2 on amaZon
We still have a little of kanaplex we used last time.

These 2 sites seemed to have good info and talk about variations of columnaris causing ‘washed out’ white & descaled sections after an injury, which is what he has HAD. Now he looks a little different but you’ll have to see the pics.

Fish Columnaris: Causes, Symptoms & Treatment - Fish Article

Fish Columnaris, the deadly disease affecting freshwater and marine fish that is often mistake with fungal infection.

fisharticle.com

Identify and Treat Columnaris (Saddle Back Disease) - FishLab

Columnaris is a bacterial disease that can lead to a quick death in fish. Treat it fast to save your fish! Find out how, here!

fishlab.com

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kno4te
duanes

 

[NilusFishFamily]

Repost with tags since it wouldn’t let me edit

Sick since DECEMBER!
Was better and relapsed in February. For those with short attention spans, feel free to skip to whatever part you need to since this is a bit of a saga please find:

1. summary
2. symptoms/current condition
3. full timeline and prior treatment details
4. Our ideas- need advice on which meds to try next

Summary:
Black moor, 3.5 years old, 37 gallon tank (only fish) and has mix of live and artificial plants. Tank was established for several years before he moved in as we had other fish that moved to a 120g tank. Typically chem test w/API master kit 2x a week and 20-30% water changes weekly, more if needed (like if he’s had peas recently). Diet is mix of fresh food, flakes and wafers. He has been hand fed since December as he can no longer swim upright. We had been getting assistance from an actual ichthyologist student but he’s been unavailable and we can’t continue to wait. This appears to be an atypical columnaris bacterial infection or something similar. He initially responded to antibiotics but after being nearly healed he hurt himself on the gravel again and now he’s covered in spots. The spots seem a little different but it’s still our feeling it’s a relapse rather than something new. He’s now in a bare bottom tank to avoid injuring himself again. He initially responded to another round of antibiotics but now seems to be getting worse and we need advice on next medication to use.


Symptoms/Current Condition:
Began with injury in gravel & afterwards appeared to have washed out scales and areas of descaling. Always white, no pink or red, NEVER fuzzy and these stuck to areas of injury initially but spread over his body. Nearly healed in January he suffered another injury and new white spots appeared. These slightly differed in appearance so it’s hard to tell if they are new or a relapse but overall it’s likely they are a relapse. The main difference is now instead of looking descaled, it looks like theres white on the surface of his scales, except for one larger spot which is where he hurt himself. They have now worsened despite medication.


Treatment Details and Full Timeline:
Our little guy began slowing down and we noticed he had some cuts like he had been digging in gravel. He seemed to have some vision issues and difficulty swimming which we read may be normal given his type and heavy fins. This continued to worsen and the areas of injury had a few spots where he looked white and descaled. He was lying on his at the bottom of the tank in December and we got help from we were able to get help long distance from a semi professional (fish vet in college) and treated the tank with methylene blue.

The fish improved almost immediately but after a few days he seemed to plateau so we did a round of kanaplex. We didn’t see an immediate response with kanaplex like we had with the MB but over time he kept healing slowly, and by January he was almost fully healed (though still unable to swim upright). We had a short period of trying to rehab his swim bladder and fit him for a life vest when he injured himself on gravel again.

Relapse or something new we don’t know. But at this point it was February and new spots appeared at these injuries but quickly spread and you’ll have to see the pictures they don’t look just descaled anymore. Now there are areas that look like he’s been brushed with something, but they don’t feel raised. Again- NOT fuzzy, feels like slime coat and not really different than the rest of his body with one exception: it does seem… softer if I can use that word, like the scale is gone and could push right through him.

We tried the MB again, this time as a dip rather than the whole tank. He didn’t do well w/2x a day (stress was easy to tell) so we cut back to once daily and he initially improved - then plateaued - then worsened again. We know we need to try another medication but aren’t sure which one to do next.


Ideas/Need advice:
Meds we could try: (mostly from the 2 links below)
LFS carries maracyn, erythromycin or tetracycline.
I’ve seen notes online about possible treatments with oxytetracycline and/or nifurpirinol or combination of nitrofurazone and kanamycin but no notes on how (comments on the link above mention kanamycin may “kill the kidneys on goldfish”)
Or I could order furan2 on amaZon
We still have a little of kanaplex we used last time.

These 2 sites seemed to have good info and talk about variations of columnaris causing ‘washed out’ white & descaled sections after an injury, which is what he has HAD. Now he looks a little different but you’ll have to see the pics.


https://fisharticle.com/fish-columnaris/

https://fishlab.com/columnaris/

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

How long do black moors live for? Could it be just old and frail? I can't imagine these manmade disfigured fish live long but it could be my ignorance.

The fish looks to show pretty general symptoms, so where does the diagnosis come from? Microscopic work by the vet student?

Lack of balance may be due to brain or nervous system affected, or swimming bladder related. Both could be bacterial but also could be caused by parasites.

The whiteness in the photos resembles excess mucus, a very non-descript, general symptom of most ailments.

 

[NilusFishFamily]

Laying on his side we think is from damage to his swim bladder from the illness itself. We are doing PT and building strength to try and repair it. We also have plans to fit him with a ‘life jacket’ once he’s healed.

diagnosis is from the last few months of running this by literally everyone, our own research and his positive response to antibiotics targeting gram negative, aerobic bacteria. I’ve emailed people at fish rescues (yes they exist!) and large aquariums. We found goldfish vets for koi that consult online for cheap and there’s apparently a gov run organization in Australia just for fish keepers! Yeah, it’s been a mission.
You’re absolutely right though and diagnosis has been a difficult process. We still aren’t 100% sure but his earlier photos from December do match those or injury w/infection so we are hoping we have it right. (A rescue was able to send me a photo of a fish currently in care that looked identical).

Goldfish in general can hit more than 20 years, w/at least one going to age 40 in captivity. Im not sure on moors specifically, (and don’t trust Google), but he’s well cared for in a good tank with semi-educated keepers so while i wouldn’t be surprised by something congenital, I don’t think it’s quite his time yet.

How long do black moors live for? Could it be just old and frail? I can't imagine these manmade disfigured fish live long but it could be my ignorance.

The fish looks to show pretty general symptoms, so where does the diagnosis come from? Microscopic work by the vet student?

Lack of balance may be due to brain or nervous system affected, or swimming bladder related. Both could be bacterial but also could be caused by parasites.

The whiteness in the photos resembles excess mucus, a very non-descript, general symptom of most ailments.

 

[duanes]

20 to 30% water change routine per week seems a little weak to me, especially in such a small tank where 100% water changes divided into two 50% increments throughout the week would hardly be a lot of work.
What is your nitrate level in ppm?
Nitrates (if high enough, can be growth inhibitors, and cause chronic maladies).
I consider any nitrate level of above 5 ppm a chronic disease precursor.
What is the temp of the tank.
Columnaris is more virulent at, and above 82"F, although it can be lethal at much lower temps

Does not look like Columnaris to me,....and depending on temp, Columnaris infected fish usually don't last very long (maybe only a week once infected, if temps are 80 or higher.
If it is Columnaris, an antibiotic effective against gram negative bacteria is what I would use.
How big was the fish when you got it?
It may have been a couple years old when first acquired, if it had any size.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

Laying on his side we think is from damage to his swim bladder from the illness itself. We are doing PT and building strength to try and repair it. We also have plans to fit him with a ‘life jacket’ once he’s healed.

diagnosis is from the last few months of running this by literally everyone, our own research and his positive response to antibiotics targeting gram negative, aerobic bacteria. I’ve emailed people at fish rescues (yes they exist!) and large aquariums. We found goldfish vets for koi that consult online for cheap and there’s apparently a gov run organization in Australia just for fish keepers! Yeah, it’s been a mission.
You’re absolutely right though and diagnosis has been a difficult process. We still aren’t 100% sure but his earlier photos from December do match those or injury w/infection so we are hoping we have it right. (A rescue was able to send me a photo of a fish currently in care that looked identical).

Goldfish in general can hit more than 20 years, w/at least one going to age 40 in captivity. Im not sure on moors specifically, (and don’t trust Google), but he’s well cared for in a good tank with semi-educated keepers so while i wouldn’t be surprised by something congenital, I don’t think it’s quite his time yet.

PT and "life jacket" for a fish are two firsts for me Never heard of either.

It's wonderful that you are doing so much for your fish and learning so much along the way but as any fish vet would probably tell you, without pathology lab work, the diagnosis is most usually a shot in the dark, even more so with such non-descriptive symptoms.

IIRC 20-40 years is for a normal bodied goldfish, not any kind of fancy goldfish, such as the black moor, whose health and longevity are most strongly compromised from birth.

Columnaris occurs in 4 major strains and probably there are other strains, and the strains can and do express differently.

We had a bad outbreak of something in 2018 in all our tanks, potentially could have been a strain of columnaris, as Duanes helped to guess-diagnose from photos of diseased fish. Our fish exhibited bad swelling, usually all over body and what's called a spinning death, that is loss of swimming control. Some cichlids showed a rather specific symptom of "duck lips" such as these cichlids (IDK if cyprinids show a similar symptom):