I have seen examples of hypocrisy around the forum a few times that Pyramid has touched on and that may or may not be the case here.
Some people shouldnt keep fish!!!!
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I appreciate a good discussion on this topic and think its a healthy debate to have. I am with you 100% in the desire to keep it civil.
I agree that it looks ridiculous, but theres a lot more wrong with it than just the looks of it. I think pointing those issues out helps people realize that its a risky way to keep fish and that if you are looking for long term success, stocking more moderately will result in a higher likelihood of achieving that goal.
I am temped to re-post some pix of the tanks from "the good ol' days" but I won't because these guys posted the pix only to get a rise out of people...they loved the attention that they got from it. They lost tons of fish, but that did not matter as long as people were paying attention to them...it made them feel important...very sad to use living creatures to that end.
The guys that keep fish this way lose more fish in a month than most lose in several years. I know, you are thinking that it is none of my business and not my concern, but I dont like to see these poor creatures die like that all for the sake of creating what some seem to define as a Monster setup which puts the fishkeepers ego before the fish's well-being. Please do not take that to the extreme and tell me, "in that case, take a hammer to your tank and leave the hobby." Again, I am promoting moderation...not extremes on either side of the debate.
We can get into the debate of extreme JDM style tanks being necessary to reduce aggression among hyper aggressive predatory species (IMO they should be kept solo), but in regards to fish health in general, a grossly overstocked tank is less stable/healthy than a more moderately stocked tank. That is a fact.
Huge bioloads concentrated in such small bodies of water is a recipe for disaster.
The stories people come up with to rationalize their losses are absurd...they look to blame anyone or anything but themselves. My point is that it could have been avoided if they had a bit more self control and stocked their tanks appropriately.
Evolution, progress, advances in technology and knowledge are beautiful things.
One of the things I love about this site is learning how to be more successful at keeping the fish we keep healthy and thriving. I learned a lot from the guys who were trying to take it to the next level some of what I learned is to not make the same mistakes they made; dont buy huge growing fish unless you have a tank large enough to accommodate them and dont go overboard with stocking levels.
I don't think anyone can argue that overstocking a tank is beneficial to the health of the fish. I realize it's all relative...some people draw the line at different places, but it's the people that don't draw a line at all that I especially take issue with.
The huge fish you mentioned, I see every day on MFK, but the huge tanks not so much. Everybody wants to be a Monsterfishkeeper, yet so few have monster fish tanks.
You mentioned that it looks ridiculous, so perhaps we have more common ground than we think?
I agree that it looks ridiculous, but theres a lot more wrong with it than just the looks of it. I think pointing those issues out helps people realize that its a risky way to keep fish and that if you are looking for long term success, stocking more moderately will result in a higher likelihood of achieving that goal.
I am temped to re-post some pix of the tanks from "the good ol' days" but I won't because these guys posted the pix only to get a rise out of people...they loved the attention that they got from it. They lost tons of fish, but that did not matter as long as people were paying attention to them...it made them feel important...very sad to use living creatures to that end.
I am impressed with the dedication of these guys that spend 10+ hours per week, doing water changes every day or every few days, but in most cases their results are not that impressive and in many cases it's outright depressing. Perhaps for a few months or maybe when lucky a few years, but they seem to lose a lot more fish than people who stock more moderately. The slightest hiccup to their systems (missed water change or a short power failure) and all fish are belly up. Dont believe me?... look at their old threads.
The guys that keep fish this way lose more fish in a month than most lose in several years. I know, you are thinking that it is none of my business and not my concern, but I dont like to see these poor creatures die like that all for the sake of creating what some seem to define as a Monster setup which puts the fishkeepers ego before the fish's well-being. Please do not take that to the extreme and tell me, "in that case, take a hammer to your tank and leave the hobby." Again, I am promoting moderation...not extremes on either side of the debate.
Not sure what you are comparing here, but let's use an example: All else being equal, a 300 gallon tank with 3 or 4 Peacock Bass is going to be much more stable and better for the fish's well being than a 300G crammed with 30 PBs. You have to compare apples to apples. Sure, if you perform a water change every day on both tanks they may survive in both cases but the 30 PBs in the 300G are not going to be as healthy as the 300G with 3 or 4. Again, all I am advocating is moderation.
We can get into the debate of extreme JDM style tanks being necessary to reduce aggression among hyper aggressive predatory species (IMO they should be kept solo), but in regards to fish health in general, a grossly overstocked tank is less stable/healthy than a more moderately stocked tank. That is a fact.
I understand ammonia is less toxic at lower PH (acidic water), but just because ammonia levels are not fatal does not mean that they are not having negative long term effects on the fish. Perhaps the long term effects accumulate and thats why we see a lot of the random fish death posts, which seem to happen disproportionately to people who overstock and have tanks that are insufficient for the species they are trying to keep.
Huge bioloads concentrated in such small bodies of water is a recipe for disaster.
The stories people come up with to rationalize their losses are absurd...they look to blame anyone or anything but themselves. My point is that it could have been avoided if they had a bit more self control and stocked their tanks appropriately.
Evolution, progress, advances in technology and knowledge are beautiful things.
One of the things I love about this site is learning how to be more successful at keeping the fish we keep healthy and thriving. I learned a lot from the guys who were trying to take it to the next level some of what I learned is to not make the same mistakes they made; dont buy huge growing fish unless you have a tank large enough to accommodate them and dont go overboard with stocking levels.
I don't think anyone can argue that overstocking a tank is beneficial to the health of the fish. I realize it's all relative...some people draw the line at different places, but it's the people that don't draw a line at all that I especially take issue with.
The huge fish you mentioned, I see every day on MFK, but the huge tanks not so much. Everybody wants to be a Monsterfishkeeper, yet so few have monster fish tanks.
Can you elaborate on this? What does it take to be a monsterfishkeeper?
The only peson, who takes the debate in normal terms, and presents it in a civ mannwr.
Beyond that i see ( not specially from you ) a lot of "hate" for hates sake. A kind of atack to people who are perceived to feel themselves in a certain position ( that, in your opinion do not deserve to be there ) which they never put themselves in.
Of course mistakes were made, of cours fish died along the way, but fishkeepining progresses, inaruably.
I have no Japanese style tanks, never have had, but love them ( of course not the above arapaima exampe we all know about and is unexcuasable ) love the knowldege in maintaining them.
On you last point, Alex, i could write for hours.
Imho a mosnterishkeeper is a guy who loves monsterfish and who does the technically possible to keep them thriving and healthy, and YES, who knows there are limits.
If it were not for that expwrience, those " ancient times " and the mistakes that were done and progress that was made, ( which you read and learn from, Alex , as you admit ), the hobby would not have evolved.
And, let me say, going to those threads still gives you good,valuable material, right. How about today? How about the staple of today?
Beyond that i see ( not specially from you ) a lot of "hate" for hates sake. A kind of atack to people who are perceived to feel themselves in a certain position ( that, in your opinion do not deserve to be there ) which they never put themselves in.
Of course mistakes were made, of cours fish died along the way, but fishkeepining progresses, inaruably.
I have no Japanese style tanks, never have had, but love them ( of course not the above arapaima exampe we all know about and is unexcuasable ) love the knowldege in maintaining them.
On you last point, Alex, i could write for hours.
Imho a mosnterishkeeper is a guy who loves monsterfish and who does the technically possible to keep them thriving and healthy, and YES, who knows there are limits.
If it were not for that expwrience, those " ancient times " and the mistakes that were done and progress that was made, ( which you read and learn from, Alex , as you admit ), the hobby would not have evolved.
And, let me say, going to those threads still gives you good,valuable material, right. How about today? How about the staple of today?
Miguel can I say that you sir are without a doubt one of the best people on this site, and 100% a true fishkeeper. overstocking is a completely objective opinion. as you stated before, Fish unlike birds and reptiles do not hide desease. A fish is contained within water which gives the fish everything it needs to live. If the fish is sick then it will be obvious to any fishkeeper who knows what to look for. If your water is clean and the fish are happy and healthy, feeding well and not having any adverse behaviours then what is wrong? large fish cramped in small tanks will display different behaviours, if the fish do not display these "stressed" behaviours then isn't it safe to assume that they are fully happy and healthy?
and as for the "what makes a monster fish keeper" Someone can be a monster fish keeper who has a lot of knowledge on the subject and is just waiting to get a bigger tank. Just because some new guy gets a big tank and shoves an arro, some pbass and a stingray in there does not make him a "Monster Fish Keeper" It's about understanding the needs and requirements of not only the fish you care for but also maintaining the system. With all hobbies and activity there comes a knowledge that must be learnt. A true monster fish keeper is like a black belt in Karate. they have learnt what they needed to and they can use it in a responsible way for the better.
90% of all members on here that call a tank overstocked are only saying it to affirm that they in fact understand what the correct level of stock "SHOULD" be. and are probably just trying to make themselves look more experienced. now those people with "overstocked" tanks that put in all the hours of waterchanges, expensive filtration and diet for their fish, they aren't worried about what the idiots think because they are actually doing something they love and doing it with healthy happy livestock.
and as for the "what makes a monster fish keeper" Someone can be a monster fish keeper who has a lot of knowledge on the subject and is just waiting to get a bigger tank. Just because some new guy gets a big tank and shoves an arro, some pbass and a stingray in there does not make him a "Monster Fish Keeper" It's about understanding the needs and requirements of not only the fish you care for but also maintaining the system. With all hobbies and activity there comes a knowledge that must be learnt. A true monster fish keeper is like a black belt in Karate. they have learnt what they needed to and they can use it in a responsible way for the better.
90% of all members on here that call a tank overstocked are only saying it to affirm that they in fact understand what the correct level of stock "SHOULD" be. and are probably just trying to make themselves look more experienced. now those people with "overstocked" tanks that put in all the hours of waterchanges, expensive filtration and diet for their fish, they aren't worried about what the idiots think because they are actually doing something they love and doing it with healthy happy livestock.
Thank you Raffini ( obrigado ) for the kind, undeserved, words.
Let us consider, for argument's sake, that:
- water quality is (AS FAr AS POSSIBLE IN ANY, BUT ANY, SYSTEM, BAR NATURE ) a given ( either through 24 hous drip, either through idiotic, moronic, obessive - you name it - water changes;
- agresision is not an issue ( only an unqualified MFKer accepts it and even brags about it, ring a bell?, without immediately resolving it / fact is a lot if people have no last resort rescue tanks.... Hence the fish are unhappy and die )
- fish go out of their path to let bigger ones swim by, it is nature. Simply put.
- power failure ( a problem most serious in the US Of A, allmost unheard of in Europe ). Would wager my meagre salary that between the politically corrct tank load and mine, no more that 1 or 2 hours difference would give the same results.
- anyway if you are serious about MfKing, and power outage is a real problem, get a Gen.
fish are more happy in a comm. In over 40 years of fishkeeping i have found that fish prefer to be around one another, even if slightly overstocked. Wet pets, who are more. Dogs than fish ( as said i have seven ) get more normal behaviours once introduced in the main tanks. Feed better, find their place in the hierarchy, and thrive better.
My most overstocked tank has 14 big fish. The tank,s sump is humongous and has several inner sump circuita and gimmicks. I haven 't had a fish die in years in that tank ( fish who sometimes die on me are quarantined new fish ). Am now watchimg them glide along in utter peacefullness.
On the other hand, i see Large fish, very large fish, politically correct kept, with one or two companions ( and a couple of skulls etc.... ) with hang on filters, with small cannisters, with in tank filters....and i don't see a lot of criticism there.
So, in the end, it is a matter of taste,of aesthetics, be they visually convepts, be they psichologic concepts.
Let us consider, for argument's sake, that:
- water quality is (AS FAr AS POSSIBLE IN ANY, BUT ANY, SYSTEM, BAR NATURE ) a given ( either through 24 hous drip, either through idiotic, moronic, obessive - you name it - water changes;
- agresision is not an issue ( only an unqualified MFKer accepts it and even brags about it, ring a bell?, without immediately resolving it / fact is a lot if people have no last resort rescue tanks.... Hence the fish are unhappy and die )
- fish go out of their path to let bigger ones swim by, it is nature. Simply put.
- power failure ( a problem most serious in the US Of A, allmost unheard of in Europe ). Would wager my meagre salary that between the politically corrct tank load and mine, no more that 1 or 2 hours difference would give the same results.
- anyway if you are serious about MfKing, and power outage is a real problem, get a Gen.
fish are more happy in a comm. In over 40 years of fishkeeping i have found that fish prefer to be around one another, even if slightly overstocked. Wet pets, who are more. Dogs than fish ( as said i have seven ) get more normal behaviours once introduced in the main tanks. Feed better, find their place in the hierarchy, and thrive better.
My most overstocked tank has 14 big fish. The tank,s sump is humongous and has several inner sump circuita and gimmicks. I haven 't had a fish die in years in that tank ( fish who sometimes die on me are quarantined new fish ). Am now watchimg them glide along in utter peacefullness.
On the other hand, i see Large fish, very large fish, politically correct kept, with one or two companions ( and a couple of skulls etc.... ) with hang on filters, with small cannisters, with in tank filters....and i don't see a lot of criticism there.
So, in the end, it is a matter of taste,of aesthetics, be they visually convepts, be they psichologic concepts.
Continuin Alex, on another note.
Those old keepers ( most saddly up and went and still do what they do and teach us nothing, now ) at least dwelved on their mistakes ( they did not give a rats ass for status or **** like that; that was not their game ) and reached conclusions, and made experiments and the hobby ( monsterfishkeeping, not molly fish keeping ) advanced because of them, their good results and their msitakes.
What have you now? Poor sods who, enthused, show off their new purchase. 9 times out of 10, if not downright bashed, thay are todl, immediately, they have to get a larger tank.
It is so evident, that now, all those guys, post about their new fish, AND IMMEDIATELY, state, in the same post, in an exculpatory manner, that they will upgrade very soon.
9 out of 10 don't come back or don' t describe the development of their experience, because (unsure young guys or guys who do not want to tolerate criticism from people they do not know ) they do not feel they deserve the bashing and the flaming .
So we learn nothing. We very rarely get to follow developments and learn with what we read.
And this was nt so. People felt free to experiment, discuss and learn, without having an army of flaming banshees invading their homes like the Iranains the US Embassy in 79....
Those old keepers ( most saddly up and went and still do what they do and teach us nothing, now ) at least dwelved on their mistakes ( they did not give a rats ass for status or **** like that; that was not their game ) and reached conclusions, and made experiments and the hobby ( monsterfishkeeping, not molly fish keeping ) advanced because of them, their good results and their msitakes.
What have you now? Poor sods who, enthused, show off their new purchase. 9 times out of 10, if not downright bashed, thay are todl, immediately, they have to get a larger tank.
It is so evident, that now, all those guys, post about their new fish, AND IMMEDIATELY, state, in the same post, in an exculpatory manner, that they will upgrade very soon.
9 out of 10 don't come back or don' t describe the development of their experience, because (unsure young guys or guys who do not want to tolerate criticism from people they do not know ) they do not feel they deserve the bashing and the flaming .
So we learn nothing. We very rarely get to follow developments and learn with what we read.
And this was nt so. People felt free to experiment, discuss and learn, without having an army of flaming banshees invading their homes like the Iranains the US Embassy in 79....
you make another interesting point, because I can imagine being someone just getting into large/predatory fish and finally finding this site, where I can discuss my interests in these large fish with like-minded people, rather than going to 'mainstream' aquarium sites where the inch per gallon rule is the law of the land etc. and people keeping a 20 gallon tank with a bunch of danios and overpriced shrimp might not have much experience in payara or arowana or whatever large predatory fish drew me in.
But then for example I make a thread asking for advice about feeding my new arowana, and as details and pictures of my new acquisition and its tank are posted, people start backing you into a corner with 'do research before you buy' , 'you need 300 gallon tank asap'. Not necessarily bad advice, but when someone is new they still want to learn...and sometimes the mfk community is not particularly welcoming in that regard. I have been here on and off for years but still hesitant to post full tank shots at times just to avoid flack over someone pointing out a violation of another unwritten fishkeeping rule....for a newcomer the feeling must suck, considering how few online communities there are like this when it comes to advanced freshwater fishkeeping in particular
Exactlly CichAnonymous.
It is not bad advice, lf course. But It is advice given with a Vengeance!
And the oldtimers were the elitists? Makes me laugh!
It is not bad advice, lf course. But It is advice given with a Vengeance!
And the oldtimers were the elitists? Makes me laugh!
When I recommend MFK to people, at the same time I'll tell them to skip telling people here their setups...
Who needs the harassment?
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Who needs the harassment?
Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
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