Why are these being sold????

[jaws7777]

All fish are mistreated by some.
There are plenty of hobbyists that give good care to all fish. It's within their capabilities. Yes cruelty and neglect will go on but hardly anyone despite their empathy for fish can look after a pima.

I know everyone on this thread provides great care. What i am saying is if your top priority is the treatment or inability to house prima why stop there when we know how many other fish die by the millions ? Its not rational. Then why classify something as order only when this will do very little to help said fish.

Restrictions, bans, or order only does nothing in terms of improving how fish are kept. Education is the key and we all agree to that.

Can you order a prima from your lfs ?

Did you mean hypocritical?

You say that no one is up in arms, au contraire my friend. The same people that you are going back & forth with here in this discussion, are the same people that will (and have) vehemently supported proper care and housing when someone on MFK starts a thread about caring for (fill in the blank). That includes Oscars, and many other species of fish. I also just said: I would personally vote to ban selling fish in a cup, such as betta, in a heart beat.

So where sre they advocating for restricting the sale of oscars to order only ?
Yes hypocritical.... auto correct sucks

Yet common sense isn't being practiced, hence the reason for the hundreds of invasive species currently spread across North America, the majority being found in the good ol' USA.

Stay on topic neil we went down the invasive species talk already

 

[skjl47]

I can speak from experience, no one is breeding O's or bettas as you described. Oscars & bettas are bread & butter fish, hence the reason why so many shops stock them - not because of hobbyist or shop breeding overload.

Your previous comment, and this one, does not apply to Oscars, or bettas.
Typically speaking, shops order Oscars and bettas from wholesale suppliers, they do not source them from hobby breeders, nor do they breed them & raise them for sale themselves. I am speaking from experience with the shops that I supplied across Canada for a decade. Perhaps things are done differently where you live.

this means there will be an abundant supply of baby Oscars from the professional and amature breeders.

Hello; Yeah I guess things are different around my area.

 

[PYRU]

Morally there is no different if adequate care isn’t being provided.
But for the Betta example it would be easier for most to provide that care. Even if they choose not to, which to me is worse.

There are lots of species that get huge and are not mentioned, but I don’t think it’s necessary to list every species that gets over a certain size for the sake of the discussion.
Maybe thats the point just because a fish gets 8 inches or 8 feet if proper care isn’t being given it’s wrong either way.

That's all I was getting at

 

[RD.]

J jaws7777

We live in the internet age. Everything is a click away. Even then what does having fish on order only status do ? So i ask my lfs to order me a prima they tell me i need a 15k tank. I disregard this amd tell them i already have said tank. Even though i do not. They sell me the fish. Not much accomplished.

I used to deal with all of the major specialty fish shops, here in my Province, and many others from coast to coast. While any one of those shops could source me a pima, the cost to order 1 juvie pima on a SA order would have been very cost prohibitive. One can't just walk in a shop & say "order me an Arapaima gigas" Those in the know will know how and where to get them, but it will be costly, and there could be a pre-order wait of weeks or months, and dumb ass kids won't be able to get one on an impulse buy. That is a key point, because we already know from invasive species that we can't stop stupid - but maybe, just maybe, we can slow it down.

And as already stated - here in Canada this species is NOT a click away, it requires a CITES permit for a starter, and a vendor willing to order them in. I don't currently know of a single online vendor that has these in stock & ready to ship, in Canada. Even if they did, it's going to be airport to airport, not always a logistically possible thing for a hobbyist, in Canada, especially in the dead of winter. For me, today that would require a 5 hour round trip in -42F.

Regardless if they are a dime a dozen wouldnt someone who cared for the mistreatment of animals so deeply that they want certain fish banned or restricted sales to equally care for the dime a dozen fish ?

Ummm, yeah. Did you miss that part??? The dime a dozen comment was in reference to Jeff's comment about the multitude of O's and bettas being mass produced by shops and home breeders. They aren't.

 

[dan518]

That makes sense but out of the 40k how many still purchased an oscar besides the six that can house them ?

are prima readily available in your town ?

They come up occasionally, which I will never see the point of as the importers and lfs know nobody can house them.
Saying that I do see your point and I am always cautions about advocating banning or restrictions as nobody will know where it ends.
This whole topic will always come down to lack of knowledge, as I said before most people out of the hobby don't really believe fish can be miss treated, there's very little known on fish intelligence, or the emotional state.
The fact we lump all finned aquatic animals under the term fish when most know the saying "there is no such thing as a fish" many of us on mfk understand the reasoning behind the statement but here we are still using it still lumping massively different animals under the catch all name.

 

[RD.]

You talk about staying on topic, Frank, yet out of the other side of your mouth you talk about common sense. The world is full of idiots, many that don't care how a fish lives, or dies. That is the entire foundation of this topic, so invasive species becomes part of that discussion as it was the morons of the world that have created the mess that we are currently in. They simply didn't care. Stay on topic? That is the topic. Some of us feel that the morons shouldn't have easy access (in our areas at least) to this species, one that grows to 12 feet in length. If you have a problem with that, that's your problem.

 

[jaws7777]

They come up occasionally, which I will never see the point of as the importers and lfs know nobody can house them.
Saying that I do see your point and I am always cautions about advocating banning or restrictions as nobody will know where it ends.
This whole topic will always come down to lack of knowledge, as I said before most people out of the hobby don't really believe fish can be miss treated, there's very little known on fish intelligence, or the emotional state.
The fact we lump all finned aquatic animals under the term fish when most know the saying "there is no such thing as a fish" many of us on mfk understand the reasoning behind the statement but here we are still using it still lumping massively different animals under the catch all name.

I guess the older i get the more i learn about unintended consequences. Even if a "fix" is good natured we never know the end results.

 

[skjl47]

reference to Jeff's comment about the multitude of O's and bettas being mass produced by shops and home breeders.

Hello; Again you distort what I write. A very common procedure in your posts. I did not say nor did I imply they are being "mass" produced. I was making a point there are way more bettas and Oscars around for sale than there are suitable long term homes for them.

I understand the "bread and butter" comment as well. The fish shops make a profit from the sale of these two species because they are popular. Being a popular and a good selling item in the business sense does not translate into a good outcome for many, if not most of these fish. Yeah a number get a good suitable home but from my actual observation and a good number of posts on this very forum a large number are housed poorly.

I will concede you are not calling me names and throwing out needless insults of late. Some progress anyway.

 

[jaws7777]

J jaws7777


I used to deal with all of the major specialty fish shops, here in my Province, and many others from coast to coast. While any one of those shops could source me a pima, the cost to order 1 juvie pima on a SA order would have been very cost prohibitive. One can't just walk in a shop & say "order me an Arapaima gigas" Those in the know will know how and where to get them, but it will be costly, and there could be a pre-order wait of weeks or months, and dumb ass kids won't be able to get one on an impulse buy. That is a key point, because we already know from invasive species that we can't stop stupid - but maybe, just maybe, we can slow it down.

And as already stated - here in Canada this species is NOT a click away, it requires a CITES permit for a starter, and a vendor willing to order them in. I don't currently know of a single online vendor that has these in stock & ready to ship, in Canada. Even if they did, it's going to be airport to airport, not always a logistically possible thing for a hobbyist, in Canada, especially in the dead of winter. For me, today that would require a 5 hour round trip in -42F.




Ummm, yeah. Did you miss that part??? The dime a dozen comment was in reference to Jeff's comment about the multitude of O's and bettas being mass produced by shops and home breeders. They aren't.

From the gist of it prima are not readily available by lfs or online purchase in your area ?
The weather conditions dont support it in any case. Many people live to far to make airport to airport even worth it.

Where i live i know people that have no issues with airport to airport. The weather is not a factor. The fish is more widely available online vs local sales.

Can you please explain what would be accomplished by labeling this fish as an order only fish in anywhere that doesnt have -40 temps.

You talk about staying on topic, Frank, yet out of the other side of your mouth you talk about common sense. The world is full of idiots, many that don't care how a fish lives, or dies. That is the entire foundation of this topic, so invasive species becomes part of that discussion as it was the morons of the world that have created the mess that we are currently in. They simply didn't care. Stay on topic? That is the topic. Some of us feel that the morons shouldn't have easy access (in our areas at least) to this species, one that grows to 12 feet in length. If you have a problem with that, that's your problem.

No1 slow watch your mouth. Werent you warned with the rest of us to keep it civil or are you above the rules we ALL have to follow ?

 

[PYRU]

People say no they're not advocating banning but then say they support banning in the next post. So which is it?

I never see pima for sale except if l really go looking online so to me its not a huge issue in comparison to others. Maybe its a colder climate area where they order a tank full of these idk.

Hardly anyone has a 180 or bigger. So if you open up the issue with pima then you open up Pandoras box for a wide variety of fish that we love. Pima are just such a small percentage is the juice really worth the squeeze?