How many different foods are you feeding?

[RD.]

Sorry, I don't have the exact nutrient break down. I was curious as to why you wanted a veggie pellet that is very low in protein? While some aquatic plant matter, such as kelp, is fairly low in protein, and high in carbohydrates/starch, most algae is relatively high in protein, ballpark 45-70% depending on the species, collection location, time of season, etc.

 

[rodger]

On the NLS subject, if they are all pretty similar and the idea is feed herbivores and preds differing amounts, that confuses someone like me. I guess not confuses but makes it impossible. I have preds, but not any aggresive ones. (No cichlids) Basically community monsters. Kind of hard to give a Dat a different amount from a giant gourami. I feed multiple foods because of that. Just my couple o pennies.

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[RD.]

So Rodger, how does one ensure that the dat only eats the food that is for the dat, and not the food for the giant gourami, and vice versa?

Also, as previously stated ........

That, and most fish will simply break down & and excrete excess amino acids. (protein)

I have raised fish classified as strict herbivores in the same tank as fish classified as omnivores, along with those classified as piscivores. All in the same tank, eating the exact same NLS pellets, exclusively, for close to 10 years before I sold them off - not a single issue. As have many, many, others.

 

[Aquanero]

Synergy "We cannot understand any system by seeking to comprehend each component". When elements interact with each other there is a flow of energy between them, perhaps in the form of nutrients, water, food, or information. Synergy is when the sum of the whole system is greater than the sum of its parts; 1 + 1 = 3. We have the individual elements and we also have the relationship that adds further complexity and characteristics. This was from Wiki as I could not have conveyed my tought any better.
It is how the available nutriants are utalized and work together to create a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. It's how and what the fish uses where they dervive the nutritional benefit. I hope this makes sense.

 

[trace]

And you don't. NLS has numerous formulas, and they certainly aren't all exatly the same. Check out the 10mm Mega Fish formula, it has far higher protein/fat levels comared to the 1mm Cichlid formula. If 10 mm is too big for your fish, improvise, and break them into smaller pieces.

Their main recipe for their various formulas has nothing to do with being lazy, and everything to do with taking a more realistic approach to feeding fish in captivity. The key word being captivity. Once you remove a fish from the wild everything changes. If you feed a nutritionally balanced food you can feed it to most species with relative success, no matter how some ichthyologist decided to classify their feeding habits in the wild. The only real differerence between feeding the various groups of fish for myself is how often, and how much I would feed. As an example, in captivity I would typically feed an algae grazer 3-4 times a day, in smaller amounts. An adult predatory carnivore would get fed at the most once a day, skipping days, and in larger amounts. For omnivores whatever, as they are pretty flexible in how & when one feeds them.

And if anyone really wants to add more aquatic plant matter to your fishes diet, to more closely mimic their diet in the wild, then New Life has also recently produced a pellet to fit that bill.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?564494-What-should-I-feed-my-tropheus

They have also come out with a line of gel foods. There is plenty of "variety" within the New Life line of foods, if that's what your looking for.

That's the first time I've heard of this formula. Interesting.


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[neutrino]

Before it seems like I'm only interested in commenting on the technical or theoretical stuff and not the original question-- My list of foods is limited and based on years of food testing and comparison, as follows: NLS and/or Omega One pellets (Shrimp and/or Super Color, sometimes Super Veggie) and some freeze dried foods (usually shrimp, like mysis, some get freeze dried blood worms). I've eliminated most other foods either based on actual comparison testing or ingredient lists, so these are my preferences based on my comparison testing and my results, others have a right to their differing opinions. Which of the above foods varies a bit according to which tank and group of fish I'm feeding. There are one or two newer products out there that I may well test out eventually, but most of them fail for me based on ingredient lists.

On the NLS subject, if they are all pretty similar and the idea is feed herbivores and preds differing amounts, that confuses someone like me. I guess not confuses but makes it impossible. I have preds, but not any aggresive ones. (No cichlids) Basically community monsters. Kind of hard to give a Dat a different amount from a giant gourami. I feed multiple foods because of that. Just my couple o pennies.

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IMO you might approach feeding a tank with a single large predator or a group of fish of a single species or type differently (more specialized) than you might feed a community of mixed types/species. But that doesn't make it a problem to feed a mixed tank ime, not in most cases. For one thing, as mentioned above, the difference between optimal protein % for different types of fish, no matter feeding habits in the wild, is not that far apart in most cases, maybe 10-12% at different ends of the spectrum in most studies I've seen, often a good bit less.

Second, these studies are often trying to determine peak growth rates per ratio of protein, what will make a fish put on size and weight the fastest. That's a completely different thing from how much protein is needed for basic good health and growth, which brings the average for most fish even closer, since the basic or general protein requirement range for general health and growth for most fish species is similar or overlaps.

In many cases, whatever diet achieves the peak growth rate is actually less efficient in terms of 'feed conversion' (how much food the fish actually uses compared to what ends up as waste), which to me doesn't make peak growth rate the holy grail of fish keeping or the only consideration. I want a healthy tank/healthy fish, not trying to win a race for how fast my fish grow.

 

[darth pike]

Sorry, I don't have the exact nutrient break down. I was curious as to why you wanted a veggie pellet that is very low in protein? While some aquatic plant matter, such as kelp, is fairly low in protein, and high in carbohydrates/starch, most algae is relatively high in protein, ballpark 45-70% depending on the species, collection location, time of season, etc.

I have my eye on some protein sensitive detrivores. I didn't realize algae was so high in protein though, so it might come down to the type of proteins ... ie avoiding the animal protiens.

 

[RD.]

I have my eye on some protein sensitive detrivores. I didn't realize algae was so high in protein though, so it might come down to the type of proteins ... ie avoiding the animal protiens.

I see, that makes perfect sense. I hadn't talked to anyone at New Life in over a year, but Pablo called me last week to see how I was doing and during that conversation we did talk about some of the recent additions to his various formulas. From what he said the AlgaeMax formula will have a small inclusion rate of krill for its amino acid content, but the majority of the nutrients will come from the algae.
But I have no idea what those exact nutrient levels are, including protein/fat/fiber content. Hopefully this works out to be a viable option for you & your fish.



Those are very good points, neutino, and thanks for weighing in on this subject. I think that a lot of hobbyists confuse growth, with optimum health, and that isn't always the case. That, and even the some of the most carnivorous warm water tropical species kept in captivity typically never require more than 45-50% protein for maximum gains in growth, even as small juveniles. Adults, and semi adults require much less.

Some of the largest carnivores fish raised in captivity, fish that can exceed 10 ft in length when adults, such as some of the sturgeon species, are generally fed diets that are under 50% protein when fry/juvenile, and closer to 40% when adults. Yet we have those with cichlids that max out at approx 12%, that live their entire lives in a glass cage, that feel their fish require 50+% protein on a daily basis, even as adults. It's just not logical, but it seems to be the "Monster" fish mentality.

 

[RD.]

12% = 12". oops

 

[CANAMONSTER]

I have a friend who claims his Frontosas have not grown fast enough on NLS and says NorthFin they grow much faster. I Use NLS exclusively now but not long enough to critique on growth. If this is true what would make growth quicker with other foods? Hormones?
Sorry if off topic.