Big fish are BACK

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One of my local fish shops have a fully grown RTC in a custom tank, the litres are crazy mad. Can't remember what it is off the top of my head, but put it this way, you could swim in it. Even with all the effort they have put in, the thing can barely turn around in it, and it literally never moves. Recently it burst its tank and had to be moved to their sump system while they repair it.

There is another shop that we visited on a long drive the other week, and we asked the man if they had any nice catfish suitable for an aggressive American cichlid community in a 5 foot tank. The man promptly told us to get a RTC. My partner and I instantly rolled our eyes at each other and lost all respect for not only the shop assistant, but also the shop itself for not training their staff properly. This is what's causing the outside problems with the hobby. The shops have a responsibility to inform the newer people to the hobby about their purchases. People don't do their research, and sadly, that will likely never change, but the shops have the chance to take a few minutes out to explain things to them. Clearly, a small profit is more important than these tank busters lives.

I grew up with big cichlids and I hope the next generation do too, otherwise we may find our hobby on the decline. As it is, we have had some local shops close down over the last few years and local availability has declined to a molly & guppy style bread and butter theme.

On the other hand, it's shocking how many fish shops you go to these days and the staff don't know what on earth they are talking about.

A fish shop down the road from me is selling a group of RTC x TSN for £10, which is around $7 USD. That screams newbie error purchase. Que the 'It ate all my fish' cries as they return them to the shops in droves.

One UK shop chain where you do still find oddballs, cats, plecs and cichlids is actually really good, they post the fish's maximum size and aggression on the label which is a great move.

I would LOVE a RTC. Like, REALLY love one, but I know I can't have one. Why is everyone not informed of the max size before purchasing? A quick search of UK classified ads shows a lot of big RTC, TSN, and various other tank busters for sale due to outgrowing their tanks.

Shops shouldn't be allowed to sell them like they do for so little money, and staff training should be mandatory so that they can inform the consumer about their potential tank busters. My partner thinks they should require a cheap but vetted licence to keep one, and I almost agree having seen one fully grown and miserable in a tank that you could have a party in. They certainly can't keep selling tank busters to everyone like they are at present. We will find our hobby targeted by all sorts of damaging organisations.
 
Ultimately it is the consumers fault. The "general" buying public are idiots. They don't do any research and buy too quickly. If someone goes into a pet store and sees a fish that looks cool and wants to buy it, it would take 30 seconds to look it up on a smartphone. We are in the Information Age, and that info can be found in seconds. They could find out what water parameters said fish needs, it's max size, etc. It is also this info that makes it impossible for mom and pop stores to have prices where they need them. A consumer could think I don't care this fish is going to get 3 feet, I'm going to buy it. Then they look at all the hardware needed, and go to amazon or wherever the google search sends them. That's why there are so few brick and mortar stores of anykind. Mom and pop stores are a dying breed, and might not make it into the next generation of retail because of the internet. Without those stores, you don't have educated sales people. So we all get great prices on the internet, great access to importers, but no places to go look at fish with educated staffs.
There will always be big fish, and people buying them who know they can't house them forever. They are fish, they are relatively inexpensive, and people don't care about the fishes lifelong well being. They want something that looks cool now, or eats feeder fish, or grows fast. That will never change. I don't think it is right. But it is what it is...
 
I have to say that mobile signal and WiFi aren't commonly available around some parts of the UK, even in built up areas, so looking things up on your phone isn't always possible. Especially down my way, we rarely get signal out of the cities and free WiFi is something that only the supermarkets tend to do. I have never seen free WiFi in a pet shop here.

I do completely agree with you, but when theres no Internet available, there should be some info in the shop. Most people don't even think to check, so that's when the shop assistants should step in.

I guess lack of Internet, along with cheap prices and uneducated or bad staff is what causes so many of these fish to end up being rehomed here in the UK.

I'm not making excuses for everyone, of course, there will still be people who know the facts and still do the wrong thing anyway, but I do think that there should be more info for newbies who don't know better. Staff training and mandatory size and aggression info on labels would be a good start.
 
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I have to agree adult size info would be a great idea. The length of time required for said fish to reach this size would be nice too. However fish do not seem to be cheap here in Canada the only cheap fish are gold fish and most people should be able to house them. One thing that a lot of people probably never think about is the weight of water. When you think about it a 30 gallon tank full of water will weigh 300 pounds. That is alot of weight in one spot left over time. Things like this should be included in the education given to new fish owners.
 
The only mom and pops store I have access to does a pretty good job of providing the size and the aggressiveness of the fish on the tags. They have a rating system of green, yellow, orange, and red for compatability. One thing thing I never see or hear info on in the shops is longevity. This is something that is a much of a consideration to me as the eventual size of the fish. If for some reason my situation changes over the next 20 years what is going to happen to a tank full of monsters?
 
The only common tankbuster here is ID sharks, otherwise the stores carry a lot of interesting fish. Which helps.

My favourite LFS has great advice and they carry a great selection of manageable fish. I love it
 
It has been stated too many times too mention that some of the problems in the fish world are created by the consumer. My wife was at speach given by a well known fish expert and he brought up an interesting point about us cosumers. He stated that if it were not for consumer demand of the cardinal tetra it would be wiped out in the wild. It is the demand for this fish and the profit it brings to the economy in it's home area that keep it alive. In fact the area is left alone so that these fish can sustain the markets demand. How many other species of fish is this happening with bit we never hear about it All we hear is how consumer demand is wiping out fish species and our hobby is a horrible thing that should be banned. Now we know what kind of people spread this propoganda why do we have to buy into it. Maybe just maybe it is time we research more than just the info on the fish we buy. Maybe the money comming in from these moster fish is doing more good than harm. Yes Joe blo may not be able to keep his RTC and have to rehome it or something else. But maybe by buying it he has helped save the RTC's home range and the home range of thousands of more fish what then.
 
I agree that it is ultimately the consumer's fault or responsibility--whatever. You can preach until the fat lady sings about researching first. There is a lot of misinformation on the web. How is the want to be big fish keeper newbie going to discern truth from fiction? I buy a lot of stuff and mostly just read the product description. I never think "is this the truth or not?" This was the label at WalMart where I am pretty sure my fish came from.
WalMart3.jpg

It is a true statement. Pacu do grow to 10 inches. What it fails to mention is that they then grow to 15", 24", 30".


Who would think that the tiny, cute baby pacu would get bigger than the huge baby oscars in the tank? That they would become like huge battle ships cruising around in the tank?
WalMart.jpg



Even if I did my researching online, this is what I would come up with today:

The optimum tank size for an adult red bellied pacu is 200 gallons
http://www.ratemyfishtank.com/blog/cultivating-a-tank-for-red-bellied-pacus

Due to their imminent growth, you should try to place your pacus in a tank that's at least five feet long and two feet wide. One or two pacus will do fine in a 55 gallon tank, but if you decide to get a school of pacus, put money back for a 100 to 200 gallon tank!
http://www.aquariumlife.net/articles/tropical-fish/red-bellied-pacu/216.asp

Red Belly Pacu does due to their size need large aquariums to thrive. Juveniles should never be kept in aquariums of less then 50 gallons (190 L) and adult fishes should be kept in aquarium of at least 200 gallons
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/mix/redbellypacu.php

I recommend a minimum of 30 gallons (about 114 liters) for any Pacu aquarium, though larger varieties or species, or multiple fish, will mandate a larger fish tank.
http://www.firsttankguide.net/pacu.php

Given their potential adult size you will need an enormous tank to keep one at home, at least 250 gallons (940 liters).
http://www.fishlore.com/profiles_red_pacu.htm

This site is a little better.
If you want to house one of these for life you’re going to need an enormous tank measuring at least 120″ x 36″ x 36 (300cm x 90cm x 90cm) – 2550 litres, preferably larger. Youngsters can be grown on in smaller tanks but will grow quickly when well-fed.
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/piaractus-brachypomus/

What more can a person do than join a pacu forum? I did that. Every one was gungho over their pacu. The moderators were giving out great advice on keeping pacu.. When asked when to do a water change, one moderator replied, "just smell the water. When it smells bad, change the water." YIKES!!! Good thing I had also joined Oscarfish to learn about oscars. I learned about the Nitrogen Cycle there. Not surprisingly, the pacu forum went defunct shortly after both moderators lost their 2-yr-old pacus which died very suddenly in their 75 gallon tanks.

We stepped into big fish keeping in a spur of the moment purchase. Nearly 12 years ago, I came home to the sound of water running....in the living room. I found this:
pacu.jpg

55 gallon tank crammed full with two 15" pacu, four 8-10" oscars and two 12" plecos. It was the mother of all yard sales purchase. My husband could not resist buying the big fish for $85. One oscar was already dying from HITH. Husband was told that the fish were oscars and pacu. I had to get online to figure out which were the oscars and which were the pacu. :( Talk about doing everything wrong. What an inauspicious beginning into our fish keeping journey for life. I am sure that he had known this impulsive yard sale purchase would cause him to put everything on a two year hold so he could build an addition to house the big fish tank, that he probably would not have made that purchase. Had I been involved and done my research first, I would have come to the wrong conclusion on tank size, since most of the pacu "experts" are completely clueless.

I absolutely advocate researching things first. And I sincerely hope that the experts of other large fish know their stuff. I do think that it is possible to unwittingly come across bad information. That was not our case as we jumped into big fish keeping totally clueless and with no regard to what it would entail. I guess it would be fair to say that we were the worse possible kind of fish keepers. Along the way, I did manage to find good info on pacu and consider myself an enlightened fish keeper now. I am very glad that there are very few threads on pacu on MFK anymore. I would like to think that people are researching and somehow finding correct info on pacu and are staying away from purchasing them.

It is the Set Up and Filtration section of MFK that makes it such a unique fish forum. Where else would I be able to read about Ultima II and Biowave filters, since I don't have a big pond? I like that there is spill over from other fish forums....like discussions of Bean Animal and Herbie drains (mostly from Reef Central). I like that people share their sump builds. Filtration on big tanks requires more than just a HOB filter, so I really appreciate filtration threads. There is a lot of really good stuff on MFK.
 
If indigenous people can't support themselves by exporting tropical species, they may turn to a trade that has far worse implications for the survival of these fish. Logging and deforestation is destroying vast stretches of habitat. I wish the do gooders would focus on saving the habitat rather than a single fish in a bad set up.
 
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wild bill wild bill Also a very good point about the RTC money maybe being used to help the natural environment. For all we know, that profit may be poured back into keeping areas good so they can continue to catch and sell them. It would be fantastic if that were the case, and I'd happily pay more for fish under such schemes. I'd love to think that we could do our bit as a hobby to help preserve the natural habitats that these majestic wonders come from.

What irks me, is that although I know that I could keep a RTC long term for a good long time, I know that eventually I'd have to get rid of it, and that would upset me as I get attached to my monsters. That's that stops me getting one. I'd want to keep it forever and I know I can't.

And in regards to the people slating the hobby - they often have no idea of the lengths us monster keepers will go to so that we can keep our fish happy. Take one look at the tank builds area of this site and you can see so many devoted people creating better environments for their wet pets. Also, as you say, the people spreading these nasty rumours shouldn't be listened to. They don't know us as a community, and take a small minority of bad examples and tarnish us all with the same brush.

At the end of the day, 99% of us would happily buy F1, F2 + specimens. We have no desire to destroy the natural stocks. Unfortunately we don't control what the fish shops / wholesalers order and most of us are limited to our local or regional shops to get stock. Of course, not everything can be tank bred, but those that can't be should be protected and limited to ensure stock levels don't go dangerously low.

pacu mom pacu mom nice story. At least you came out the other side and learnt quickly! Talk about being thrown in at the deep end. Wow at the Walmart labels. Talk about bad misinformation! We also saw some similar labels in a shop today which is pretty bad.

robham777 robham777 Very good points in both posts. We also have a similar system at one of our national stores and its a wonderful idea. Could be more info, but it's a great step in the right direction. In regards to natives fishing, as you say, it could be worse. While they shouldn't be fishing to the point of extinction, there is worse things that they could do. The levels of deforestation depresses me. It's so so do sad. I wish there was a ban put on it. Take the Amazon for example. New species are still bring discovered and they're destroying our ozone by tearing down the trees. It's so depressing.
 
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