Tigrinus Catfish in 180?

[T1KARMANN]

My name is not Neil so I have no idea why you are calling me that

You quoted arofanatics and like I said look on that forums old threads and see how many small tigs have die with most of them being power fed on MP

You may also want to look at Arowana club at a thread by CDM called the evolution of the tigrinus and again you will see how many small tigs died after being fed to much MP

I'm no expert and have never claimed to be all I know is what has worked for me and I intend on sticking to the things that have worked for me when growing out a small tig

RD it's you who won't listen to anyone elses way but you own what works for some may not work for others we are all here to learn

If people want to take your or my advice is up to them no one else

And that should be the end of it but for some reason you seam to feel the need to carry this on

 

[RD.]

I'm not discounting anyone's experience, nor am I going off of one persons experience feeding MP to tigs. Balton had the same experience as Bret, as have numerous other people on arofanatics. And that's just one forum, out of potentially hundreds where other tig owners will state the same kind of results. I also don't own a crystal ball, so I have no idea what or why a catfish such as a tig may have issues when being fed shrimp/MP, or anything else, in anyone's tank.

Do you have any idea how many THOUSANDS of times over this past decade I have read where someone stated that (pick a brand) of pellets has killed their fish? That doesn't necessarily make it so, and that's the point that I was attempting to make.

Again, you are basing your opinion on a single event that took place with 1 juvie tig, hardly what I would refer to as concrete evidence of anything. Yet in your opinion I have to personally drop the MP into a tank & watch a tig eat it in order to form any kind of opinion on associated health risks? And who says that I haven't? You might be surprised how many exotic fish I am exposed to on a constant basis, including the feeding of those fish. That doesn't make me an authority on the subject, anymore than it does you or your pal that you brought into this discussion to set everyone straight.

The OP never even asked about dietary requirements, he asked about size of tank, which was answered on page 1.

Go back to the beginning of this discussion & see how it evolved, no one (inluding myself) was advocating feeding shrimp, or anything else to a tig. Balton & I merely post what we have seen & personally experienced first hand, and suddenly T1Karmann shows up. BTW - I didn't mention power feeding, he did, which I 100% agree on. (no matter the food source)

the problem is people want to grow small tigs fast and power feed the tig this is not good as tigs are crap hunters and wouldn't get as much food in the wild as they get in a tank

if you power feed a tig shrimp every day chances are it will die

look around and you will find that a lot of tigs die at a size of 6-8 inch after people power feed with shrimp

BTW - most of the exotic fish that Bret imports are fed MP to get them eating, but he doesn't feed small fish "chunks" of MP, not even 1/8" in size, nor do I recall him ever doing that with his tig. Tiny little shreds of MP, for tiny little mouths, so very little chewing is required, and digestion is much easier. Raw MP is rather chewy & sinewy in texture, and even though a small fish may be able to get that food in their mouth, doesn't mean that it will be able to easily digest it, especially if it just horks it back in 1 piece. Perhaps this was the problem that you gents were having? Perhaps something to consider.

I asked straight away;

Personally I'm at a loss as to what type of health issue would be caused by feeding a juvenile catfish such as a tig, shrimp? Anyone have any theories as to why shrimp may be a problem?

And so far all I have heard is salt content, which when one considers the millions of other freshwater fish that have no issue eating seafood (including scores of species of catfish) is IMO borderline ludicrous.
One of the reasons why for many decades hobbyists have fed marine fish, to freshwater fish, was the simple fact that most marine pathogens won't affect a freshwater fish. Even if frozen first, not all pathogens will necessarily be destroyed, thus the reason for feeding in this manner.
It's not like I invented the idea, but this is certainly the first time that I have ever read or heard anything along the lines of what's being stated here, and I've been around a loooong time, and do my best to stay on the cutting edge when it comes to nutrition.

But hey, if you guys have something concrete that will explain the reasoning behind why this particular species of catfish (at least in its juvenile stage of life) cannot assimilate shrimp or MP, I am most interested in reading it, which is why I asked in the first place.

Fair enough?



And T1Karmann - I thought that in a PM that you sent to me several yrs ago you referred to yourself as Neil. I guess not, my bad.
BTW - I thought that I was boring you? lol

 

[123456]

Again, you are basing your opinion on a single event that took place with 1 juvie tig, hardly what I would refer to as concrete evidence of anything. Yet in your opinion I have to personally drop the MP into a tank & watch a tig eat it in order to form any kind of opinion on associated health risks? And who says that I haven't?

The OP never even asked about dietary requirements, he asked about size of tank, which was answered on page 1.

BTW - most of the exotic fish that Bret imports are fed MP to get them eating, but he doesn't feed small fish "chunks" of MP, not even 1/8" in size, nor do I recall him ever doing that with his tig. Tiny little shreds of MP, for tiny little mouths, so very little chewing is required, and digestion is much easier. Raw MP is rather chewy & sinewy in texture, and even though a small fish may be able to get that food in their mouth, doesn't mean that it will be able to easily digest it, especially if it just horks it back in 1 piece. Perhaps this was the problem that you gents were having? Perhaps something to consider.

But hey, if you guys have something concrete that will explain the reasoning behind why this particular species of catfish (at least in its juvenile stage of life) cannot assimilate shrimp or MP, I am most interested in reading it, which is why I asked in the first place.

Firstly, I don't think this is concluded from one single event of tig death. Both of my tigs reacted negatively to shrimp. As I said, they did not regurgitate the pellets or the feeder fish. So it's not the fish quality or overfeeding or sick fish. It ONLY regurgitated shrimp.

The only reason I cut down the size of the shrimp because they would not hold down the shrimp at a bigger size.

The threads of the 4 that died in the last month (on MFK) and can all be "possibly" related to the feeding of shrimps. Of course, no concrete evidence.

You gathered all your info from reading from other forums and your importer friend (which I won't discredit since I am sure we all have different experiences). But some how you think that it is more concrete evidence compared to other tig keeper's experiences like Taskan, T1, and I.

I did not discredit your friend Brett or Balton. If you read my post, I said Balton seem to have a lucky tig since my didn't react well to it. So both of my tigs were "unlucky" if you want to call it that. I accepted that their tigs reacted well and thrived with shrimps as juvies. It's great!

I feel that you are discrediting our input and you are asking us for concrete proof. Go do an experiment yourself and prove us wrong.

Have you also consider that fact that the people feeding shrimps to tigs in the arofanatics forum are mostly over 12" in size? Maybe that's why they have no problems. Our original statement states that you can feed them shrimp/fish/etc after 12" in size. In order a proper digestive system. (Again, no concrete evidence, just theory through experience)

Is there a reason why we can't feed newborn babies a big fatty steak from birth instead of breast milk or powdered formula? Cause they don't have teeth to chew and their digestive system can't digest it... I think that can be related to why tigs can't digest certain types of meats as readily as juvies.

As for the salt content, most people also know that most catfish cannot tolerate salt as much as other fish. So as juvies, maybe they react poorly to the salt content in the shrimp and are extra sensitive when ingested?

These are of course just "theories", no one conducted any experiments. So for all I care, we can all be wrong. But it's our experiences, and you can take it or leave it. If you want to keep saying that we are wrong, then you are obviously looking for more that just "theories".

If you want concrete evidence or want to prove us wrong, go buy ten 4 to 5" tigs and feed them all shrimps and record the data. Other wise try to keep an open mind about other people's primary experiences.

 

[RD.]

Have you also consider that fact that the people feeding shrimps to tigs in the arofanatics forum are over 12" in size?

Not quite, perhaps you should go back & actually read what was posted in the link I provided. Even the store that was mentioned was apparently feeding MP to all of their juvie tigs. I can't imagine that anyone would do that if the tigs were constantly dieing on them. There are numerous threads on that forum where people are, and have, raised very small tigs on a diet of MP. How much more clearer can I make it?
Are these people all liars?

I'm not saying that you are wrong, or I am right, or attempting to discredit you or anyone else, I simply don't personally believe it has anything to do with sodium content. As you just stated, this is just your theory.

I'm open to that theory, especially if one is buying frozen shrimp at the grocery store that has aded salt, but I just personally don't find the whole thing very plausable, especially when it seems that there are many tig owners apparently not having any problems when feeding raw MP.

So I asked if you had anything concrete that you can supply with regards to the salt theory, which I'm guessing from the lack of information being offered, you dont. Fine.

Do you know of any other species of SA catfish that die when being fed sea foods such as raw MP?

BTW - I never once stated that anything I said was concrete, I clearly stated that this was just based on my own personal opinion, which comes from a a fairly solid background of the nutrient requirements of most finfish, including catfish.

I'm not asking anyone to prove anything to me just to prove a point, or win this little debate, I'm actually quite interested as fish nutrition is my background, and I have never once heard of raw MP affecting a freshwater species of fish in the manner being described here. If in fact sodium is the culprit, then I would love for someone to provide some detail as to how an elevated level of sodium in raw prawns would cause that type of lethal effect on a catfish.

 

[123456]

I am all for debates, and yes, I have read the link you posted.

In fact before my last post, I searched the entire arofanatics forum in regards to Tigs and MP to verify, and I found that most of all the posts related to tigs and feeding MP are bigger than 10"s to 12"s.

If you are basing your info on the one thread, then your claim is accurate. But there are not many other threads on their about juvie tigs and MPs.

Like I said, I am glad Balton and Brett had success feeding their Tigs MPs as juvies. It's great! I wish my took MP as juvies too. But it didn't.

But the info we are suggesting are from personal experiences from T1, Taksan (who still keeping 4 large and healthy tigs) and mine. We are not friends or a cult... lol. Our tigs just happen to have certain negative reactions to MPs as juvies.

As I stated, I fed both my tigs shrimps when they were under 8". I did end up losing the smaller one after trying to feed him/her shrimp a few times. Shrimp related death or not? We'll never know. After I lost the little one, I stopped trying to feed shrimp and just stuck with pellets and he is still growing like a champ.

Take it with a grain of salt. Just like humans, I don't find it so unbelievable that it requires fish some time for it's digestive tract to be able to break down certain complex proteins (ie shrimp meat). It could be the salt, it could be the type of meat. I could be neither.

 

[T1KARMANN]

I can beleive this is STILL going on

Perhaps RD can explain the very high death rate with tigs between the size of 6-8 inch ?

He keeps going on about arofanatics like I said I vist that forum a lot and most members used to feed mainly MP and lots of small tigs were die at the sizes I stated but for some reason RD only seams to be mentioning a few members on arofanatics who have grown tigs large but refuses to comment on the many small tigs that die on that forum more in fact than get to adult size

Just a quick reply please then we can put this to bed

 

[taksan]

As someone who has grown up 8 tig's so far from tiny little babies to over 20" and has 4 over 24" including the biggest tig ever at near 30" all I can say is ...

NEVER FEED SHRIMP if the fish is under 12" and if its over 12" Never feed shrimp more then once every 2-3 weeks.

 

[RD.]

T1Karmann - if this discussion bores you so much then stop reading it.



Let me just start by saying this, I've been in this hobby a long time, and over the years have read enough BS to sink a fleet of large ships, much of this BS is still bantered about to this day, in many cases due to nothing more than a few people who may have had good intentions, but in reality didn't know what they were talking about.

I am not saying this is the case in this situation, I'm just one of those people who doesn't just believe something because I read it on the internet. I'm also very well versed in the subject of fish nutrition, and none of this is adding up for me. (with regards to sodium content)


I saw a number (as in several) of threads on arofanatics where the owners were feeding MP to juvie tigs with no apparent health issues. Perhaps I was using a different search string, I don't even remember at this point. I'll look again later if you like. For now at least we have 2 confirmed cases where MP did not cause any type of health issue, and one of those tigs was barely 3" when started on MP, was 24" when sold, and is still growing & going strong in another local hobbyists tank. It is also now off pellets, and has been eating MP & fish fillet for the past year or two. (gasp)

Just like humans, I don't find it so unbelievable that it requires fish some time for it's digestive tract to be able to break down certain complex proteins (ie shrimp meat). It could be the salt, it could be the type of meat. I could be neither.

The only problem with that is those same amino acids (protein) are found in ALL fish based foods, whether they are of marine origin, or freshwater.
Also, the commercial food that is being recommended (Hikari carnivore) also contains these same amino acids, most of those also being derived from marine (sea food) sources, such as krill, and fish meal.

As far as sodium content, most commercial pellet formulas will fall in the .4-.8% range, and unless my math is incorrect raw MP is in the 1.2-1.5% range. While I doubt that there is any type of information regarding the dietary requirement of sodium in M. tigrinus, there are studies that show that a level of sodium up to 2% does not affect growth in commercially raised catfish. In the link below they fed channel cats supplemented with NaCl levels as high as 4% for 10 weeks, with no apparent issues. (study involved preventing nitrite poisoning)
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=200095

While I realize that one cannot always extrapolate info from those types of studies to ALL catfish species, it certainly seems odd that a mere 1.5% sodium content would cause sudden death in tigrinus.

NEVER FEED SHRIMP if the fish is under 12" and if its over 12" Never feed shrimp more then once every 2-3 weeks.

Duly noted. Perhaps you can enlighten the masses as to what exactly causes these sudden deaths when MP is fed to a catfish?

 

[123456]

The only problem with that is those same amino acids (protein) are found in ALL fish based foods, whether they are of marine origin, or freshwater.
Also, the commercial food that is being recommended (Hikari carnivore) also contains these same amino acids, most of those also being derived from marine (sea food) sources, such as krill, and fish meal.

Hey RD, I agree that a lot this read on the internet is false. For discussion sake, I am down to finding the truth.

As far as having the same amino acids in pellets compared to the amino acids in meat.

The difference is that an organism's ability to break down primary/secondary/tertiary/quaternary protein structures is different from it's ability to process amino acids. Yes, indeed proteins are made up of amino acids, but there's more than just amino acids in the composition of meat.

So amino acids in pellets can be digested yes, but breaking down shrimp meat is what I am trying to get at and not so much the amino acids in the meat.

Like in humans, enzyme develop through time for digestion. And this might be the case for a juvie tig's inability to digest meat for some tigs.

 

[RD.]

Hey RD, I agree that a lot this read on the internet is false. For discussion sake, I am down to finding the truth.

Thank you for remaining civil, all I am doing is attempting to figure this out.

While what you say about amino acids is true, then let us compare MP with various feeders. The exact same enzymatic process would be taking place between both forms of food. Yet one is supposedly causing tigs major complications, and the other isn't? Still doesn't add up for me.
Both forms of food are comprised of approx 90% water, so unless that "mouthful" of food was too much for the fish to digest at one time, there shouldn't be any serious complications such as what I have been reading.

I'm assuming these were your two tigs, yes?
http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=436121

If so, my first impression would be that it was very possible that both of these fish may very well have had internal parasites of some sort. This is quite common when feeders have been the main staple of a wild fish, and the "panting" part mentioned in your other thread kinda points to that as well. None of that sounds like sodium toxicity. I've lost count as to how many recently imported fish (wild & domestic) I have seen suffer the fate of internal parasites and/or worms. First course of action is when in doubt treat as a preventative before more serious issues follow. I'm not saying that was the cause of death, only that it certainly can't be ruled out, unless a necropsy was performed ans they came back with a clean of internal pathogens.

I still see no evidence of "sodium" toxicity, but lots of probelms that do seem to originate from overfeeding.

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=449033

Previously I had kept 2 tigs one was 60cm and the other one I grew it from 12cm to 50cm on feeders no problem watsoever but the one I fed on mp died at around 30cm, bought at size 18cm. Here's my dead tig, Sudden death too!

So the tig that this person bought at 18cm, grew to 30 cm (12") on nothing but MP, and then suddenly died from salt overdose?

And the last comment in that thread was even more interesting.

Mine was also dead due to this. It was about 12" Open up its belly and found many undigested MP.

Again, one of the common denominators that I keep reading on arofanatics, is death due to obese overfed fish, not just from MP, but from many other diets as well. Seems to me that overfeeding could easily be considered the main cause of death in larger acclimatized tigrinus.

More examples of death that owners felt were caused from overfeeding...........


http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=434610


Perhaps there may be more than one issue at hand, one being newly imported wild tigs that may have internal issues that only surface when the fish come under stress (such as being transported & plopped into a new environment) and another where once a juvie fish reaches semi-adult or adult size, simply dies from fat deposition and/or being stuffed to death.